Lockett v Dunstall

[kyuss]

The headline and the opening paragraph mention 'two AFL greats'. One is obviously Jason Dunstall. The other player quoted is Cam Mooney. Surely not

That is funny. Mooney a great? Give me a spell. Just wondering if anyone wouldn't have Dunstall in there top ten of all time? In my time watching the game he would be in my top 5. Cemented by the fact I was at Waverly that infamous day the number on his back indicated how many goals he kicked. Interested to hear older fans ( and everyone's for that matter) opinion on this.

 

[kyuss]

sorry by the way. Probably needs to be in a different thread.

 

[Ossie]

That is funny. Mooney a great? Give me a spell. Just wondering if anyone wouldn't have Dunstall in there top ten of all time? In my time watching the game he would be in my top 5. Cemented by the fact I was at Waverly that infamous day the number on his back indicated how many goals he kicked. Interested to hear older fans ( and everyone's for that matter) opinion on this.

Haha, Mooney is an AFL great in his own mind, that would be about it! Yes, Dunstall was an amazing player. So fast on the lead, super hands and a very accurate kick for goal.
He didn't quite reach the number on his back at Waverley in 1992, 'only' kicking 17! He did back it up with a lazy 12 against us in the return match at the G, so 29 in a season is a fair return against one side. Scotty Turner had some revenge in 1995 when he kept the Chief goalless, which was a huge effort.
So hard to compare eras and positions, but Dunstall would have to be in the top 10 I have watched play since the 70's.

 

[kyuss]

Haha, Mooney is an AFL great in his own mind, that would be about it! Yes, Dunstall was an amazing player. So fast on the lead, super hands and a very accurate kick for goal.
He didn't quite reach the number on his back at Waverley in 1992, 'only' kicking 17! He did back it up with a lazy 12 against us in the return match at the G, so 29 in a season is a fair return against one side. Scotty Turner had some revenge in 1995 when he kept the Chief goalless, which was a huge effort.
So hard to compare eras and positions, but Dunstall would have to be in the top 10 I have watched play since the 70's.

Sorry, for some reason I thought 17, but youre quite right he was 19. Unbeleivable player.

 

[Ossie]

Sorry, for some reason I thought 17, but youre quite right he was 19. Unbeleivable player.

No worries at all. Yes, he was a magnificent player. He had some great service in those days from Jarman, Pritchard, Allan, Hall, Bucky, Wittman, Kennedy, Loveridge, Greene, Eade, Condon, Platten, Anderson etc, but still kicked bags in average teams later in his career. Gee looking at their teams from the 80's and early 90's compared to ours of the same era shows why they regularly smashed us!

 

[spook]

Dunstall was a champion but if a prime Lockett had replaced him in those Hawthorn sides he would have broken the 20-goal barrier in a game, and given 200 in a season a nudge, as long as he stayed fit and didn't belt anyone. (Big ask but he would have been in a better mood in that Hawks team.)

 

[Tigers of Old]

I actually thought Dunstall was the better team player & Lockett the better spearhead.
Both superstars.

 

[Ossie]

I actually thought Dunstall was the better team player & Lockett the better spearhead.
Both superstars.

It is a fascinating discussion which we can only offer opinions about. Both Chief and Plugger were absolute champions who seemed to take their chances in front of goal so well.
I had a look for comparison purposes at their goals and accuracy percentage.
Plugger: 1360 goals @ 70% accuracy
Dunstall: 1254 goals @ 66% accuracy
Ablett Snr: 1031 goals @ 60 accuracy

Just to throw some Tiger flavour into the mix, I looked at 3 great Tassie Tigers.
Disco Roach: 607 goals @ 66% accuracy
Richo: 800 goals @ 59% accuracy
Jack: 634 goals @ 63% accuracy

 

[Tazzytiger]

I don't know about that. Dunstall had plenty of other players kicking goals around him, when he kicked a big bag so did the team.

Lockett kicked a huge percentage of his sides goals most of the time.

And Hawthorn won more Flags

 

[spook]

I don't know about that. Dunstall had plenty of other players kicking goals around him, when he kicked a big bag so did the team.

Lockett kicked a huge percentage of his sides goals most of the time.

It's all conjecture. Dunstall was a superstar no question, but he came into a side in the middle of its seven grand finals in a row. Arguably the best team of my time, maybe ever. Champions on every line. Goals were shared more, sure, but there were a stack more opportunities.

St Kilda won 15 games - total - in Lockett's first four seasons. In his second year, aged 18, he kicked 77 goals from 20 games in a side that won 5 games. The next year he kicked 79 from 21 in a team that won 3. He turned a State of Origin game as a teen after being thrown in the ruck at half time. He kicked a ton and won the Brownlow at 21. In 1989, he was on target to smash Pratt's and Hudson's season record before a knee(?) ended his year on 78 goals from 11 games.

Yeah, he kicked a high proportion of his team's goals, because until Loewe came along, they had no one else. I remember him kicking 12 of 14 in a side that lost by 10 goals. He kicked 10.7 (out of 13.18) with Silvagni hanging off him one day (Lockett 1 free for, 8 against!) and Robert Walls said he didn't dare shift SOS or Plugger would have kicked 20. He still lifted the Saints to a 4-point win.

He was unstoppable at his best. Bigger than Dunstall, stronger, just as quick, at least as good a mark, better kick, and much meaner. I rate him better than Carey.

It is a fascinating discussion which we can only offer opinions about. Both Chief and Plugger were absolute champions who seemed to take their chances in front of goal so well.
I had a look for comparison purposes at their goals and accuracy percentage.
Plugger: 1360 goals @ 70% accuracy
Dunstall: 1254 goals @ 66% accuracy
Ablett Snr: 1031 goals @ 60 accuracy

Just to throw some Tiger flavour into the mix, I looked at 3 great Tassie Tigers.
Disco Roach: 607 goals @ 66% accuracy
Richo: 800 goals @ 59% accuracy
Jack: 634 goals @ 63% accuracy

Richo's accuracy looks better because they don't take out-on-the-fulls into account.

And Hawthorn won more Flags

That's the argument people put forward to rate Bill Russell above Wilt Chamberlain. It's nonsense. Jake Stringer has more flags than Gary Ablett Sr.

 

[taztiger4]

It's all conjecture. Dunstall was a superstar no question, but he came into a side in the middle of its seven grand finals in a row. Arguably the best team of my time, maybe ever. Champions on every line. Goals were shared more, sure, but there were a stack more opportunities.

St Kilda won 15 games - total - in Lockett's first four seasons. In his second year, aged 18, he kicked 77 goals from 20 games in a side that won 5 games. The next year he kicked 79 from 21 in a team that won 3. He turned a State of Origin game as a teen after being thrown in the ruck at half time. He kicked a ton and won the Brownlow at 21. In 1989, he was on target to smash Pratt's and Hudson's season record before a knee(?) ended his year on 78 goals from 11 games.

Yeah, he kicked a high proportion of his team's goals, because until Loewe came along, they had no one else. I remember him kicking 12 of 14 in a side that lost by 10 goals. He kicked 10.7 (out of 13.18) with Silvagni hanging off him one day (Lockett 1 free for, 8 against!) and Robert Walls said he didn't dare shift SOS or Plugger would have kicked 20. He still lifted the Saints to a 4-point win.

He was unstoppable at his best. Bigger than Dunstall, stronger, just as quick, at least as good a mark, better kick, and much meaner. I rate him better than Carey.


Richo's accuracy looks better because they don't take out-on-the-fulls into account.


That's the argument people put forward to rate Bill Russell above Wilt Chamberlain. It's nonsense. Jake Stringer has more flags than Gary Ablett Sr.

similar quality of person

 

[spook]

Just looking at that 1989 season, I remember now. Lockett kicked 70 goals in the first 9 rounds: 9, 10, 8, 5, 5, 6, 6, 9, 12. Then he missed 5 matches, played 2 more, then was done for the year. Pretty sure that was the year he threw his crutch at Eddie McGuire.

Another incredible stat: in 281 career games, he received 152 free kicks and conceded 435. No wonder he belted blokes. Mind you, Dunstall only received 153 frees in 269 games, but conceded just 168. Amazing that they both conceded more than they were given, considering the efforts that went into stopping them.

I'm not trying to talk Dunstall down. As a teenage key forward at the time, my mates I would argue over Plugger v Dunstall, Dermie v Kernahan. I was definitely a Plugger/Dermie man, but they were all champions.

 

[Tigers of Old]

Of the two of them I think Dunstall would definitely be more suited to the modern game.

 

[Ossie]

Plugger was a unique beast. In 1991, he missed the first 6 games of the season and still kicked 127! For a guy his size, he was so quick on the lead, and also so strong in a wrestle. There was the game for the Swans in 1995 vs Fitzroy when he kicked 16 and spent 10 minutes on the bench due to a communication mix-up between Barass and the runner. The Fred Fanning record was also in danger that day, as well as the Chief's 17 against us in 1992.


"Richo's accuracy looks better because they don't take out-on-the-fulls into account."

Haha, that is so true. My wife and I often chuckle when a player kicks one on the full and recount Richo saying "they don't count out on the full shots in your record!" The great man had plenty of those!

 

[tigerman]

Just looking at that 1989 season, I remember now. Lockett kicked 70 goals in the first 9 rounds: 9, 10, 8, 5, 5, 6, 6, 9, 12. Then he missed 5 matches, played 2 more, then was done for the year. Pretty sure that was the year he threw his crutch at Eddie McGuire.

Another incredible stat: in 281 career games, he received 152 free kicks and conceded 435. No wonder he belted blokes. Mind you, Dunstall only received 153 frees in 269 games, but conceded just 168. Amazing that they both conceded more than they were given, considering the efforts that went into stopping them.

I'm not trying to talk Dunstall down. As a teenage key forward at the time, my mates I would argue over Plugger v Dunstall, Dermie v Kernahan. I was definitely a Plugger/Dermie man, but they were all champions.

Plugger's the best player I've seen, I remember that State of Origin when he played in the ruck in the 2nd half, and dominated.

In 1991 he kicked 127 goals from 17 games, superstar.

 

[Ossie]

They've been replaying the game he belted Peter Caven in on Fox a lot during the break.

I reckon he gave away 350 of the 435 that day and every one was 100% there! He also kicked a lazy 11 or so.

Haha, that is pretty close TBR! Not to mention almost decapitating poor old Kenny Williams behind the goals with a low flying missile!

 

[tigertim]

Yeah, Lockett for me, easily.

 

[eZyT]

Of the two of them I think Dunstall would definitely be more suited to the modern game.

plugger was deceptively athletic.

Im not saying he was any Nick Riewoldt, but within the 50m arc, he could motor and turn.

plugger was a brute.

Nearly came to the tigers.

for some reason, I always put dunstall and Lloyd in the same basket. undisputed champions, who were a bit boring to watch, and benefitted from the midfield service.

back on Cam Mooney, yeah hes one of the most fraudulent 'greats' of all time.

wouldn't get a game in our current line up. about as good as Brody Mihocheck

 

[Ridley]

plugger was deceptively athletic.

Im not saying he was any Nick Riewoldt, but within the 50m arc, he could motor and turn.

plugger was a brute.

Nearly came to the tigers.

for some reason, I always put dunstall and Lloyd in the same basket. undisputed champions, who were a bit boring to watch, and benefitted from the midfield service.

back on Cam Mooney, yeah hes one of the most fraudulent 'greats' of all time.

wouldn't get a game in our current line up. about as good as Brody Mihocheck

Agree on Plugger; he was the best. Certainly as a dedicated full forward. Amazing footballer. The Richmond link is interesting. It was at the end of the 94 season. My memory is that he nominated Richmond as his preferred club but the Saints wanted our up and coming star Richo to be included in the deal and we rightfully refused. Of course the AFL was pretty keen to get Plugger to Sydney which didn't help. We had a great season in 95 making the PF after Richo's season was ended in round 9 and with Stephen Jurica and Stuart Edwards as our key forwards. What could have been with Plugger at FF

Reckon you're selling Dunstall short though ezy on the Lloyd comparison. Dunstall was a superstar and Lloyd not fit to carry his bags.

Mooney was one of the most overrated players I've ever seen. No chance he gets a game in our side today; he'd struggle to get one in our VFL side.

 

[tigertim]

Agree on Plugger; he was the best. Certainly as a dedicated full forward. Amazing footballer. The Richmond link is interesting. It was at the end of the 94 season. My memory is that he nominated Richmond as his preferred club but the Saints wanted our up and coming star Richo to be included in the deal and we rightfully refused. Of course the AFL was pretty keen to get Plugger to Sydney which didn't help. We had a great season in 95 making the PF after Richo's season was ended in round 9 and with Stephen Jurica and Stuart Edwards as our key forwards. What could have been with Plugger at FF

I heard Benny G himself say if Plugger came to Richmond he (Benny) would’ve been at St Kilda.