Gough | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Gough

Good list but it overlooks Gough's WW2 record which is equally as impressive.

On a side note, in 1975, I was 27 years old and since then I've been amused by the change of attitude/politics of Malcolm Fraser over the past 39 years. It seems he's trying to change people's perception of him. I've got news for old Malcolm - "it won't work. At least not with me".
Your behaviour in 1975 was despicable and I'll never forget it. And I'm a LIBERAL voter. What happened in 1975 rightly enraged Labor and caused confusion in Liberals such as myself resulting in me voting informally for many years afterwards. I just couldn't bring myself to vote for Fraser.

There's also been some pretty ordinary things written about Gough in the past few days, and being "old school" I don't think you should speak ill of the dead.
 
Like I said nice re-write of history by SMH.

Last combat troops left Vietnam in November 1971. Whitlam came to power in December 1972.

https://www.awm.gov.au/atwar/vietnam/

But hey why let facts get in the way of a good story.
 
Peaka said:
Like I said nice re-write of history by SMH.

Last combat troops left Vietnam in November 1971. Whitlam came to power in December 1972.

https://www.awm.gov.au/atwar/vietnam/

But hey why let facts get in the way of a good story.

Which part of the article re-wrote history? I can't see any claims in it in relation to Whitlam and combat troops.
 
Peaka said:
But hey why let facts get in the way of a good story.


Not quite right.

The process of withdrawal had effectively begun in 1970 when Prime Minister Gorton announced that the 8th Battalion of the Royal Australian Regiment would not be replaced at the end of its tour of duty, and his successor, William McMahon subsequently announced additional troop withdrawals. Whitlam had been vehemently opposed the escalation of the war, Australia's involvement in it, and the conscription enacted to sustain it throughout the 1960s.
On its seventh day in power, the Whitlam Government announced the withdrawal of Australia's remaining troops, which were designated as 'military advisers'. The Government officially ended Australia's involvement in the war on January 11, 1973 when Governor General Paul Hasluck issued an official proclamation formally ending hostilities. The eleven year conflict had been the longest in Australian military history.69 60,000 Australians had served during the Vietnam War. 521 were killed, and 3,129 had been wounded.
 
Thanks for that posting Rosy. I was born in 78 and my parents weren't very political with me growing up. I don't remember it being much of a topic at school either, though i may of been swimming in the river.

So thanks - its an interesting insight. and an impressive record in a short time, which i've been privileged enough to experience and appreciate growing up.
 
Yes, I was probably a bit too unkind to old Gough, but my feelings are very affected by the families of my friends that his administration hurt during the 70s.

One of my closest friends of that time, his family had one of the biggest building companies in Melbourne. Their company went broke twice during labour administrations because of the poor economic performances of these governments. The first was in 74-75, due to Whitlam. The second time was in the late 80s due to Keating's recession we had to have.

Beyond this friend, there were many others whose families were forced into closing their manufacturing facilities during and after the Whitlam era and reverted to merely importing their goods from Asia.

In regards to social reform, this had begun well before the Whitlam era.
The ending of the infamous White Australia Policy was progressively dismantled in 1949, again in 1966, and the last step was in 1973. So, it began well before Whitlam.
The same voting rights were given to Aboriginals as other Australians in 1965. Had nothing to do with the Whitlam era.
The winding down of Australia's participation in Vietnam began in 1970, with nearly all troops withdrawn by 1971. The last Australian troops left in late 1972, just when Whitlam came to power. So, don't let them tell you that Whitlam ended the Vietnam War either.
Censorship reform began in Australia in 1970, under Don Chipp during the Gorton tenure. This was well before the Whitlam government.
Reforms of the health system started in 1970, especially with the Mental Health Act, well before Whitlam came to power.
In the Arts, the Australian council of the Arts, the Australian Film Development Corporation and other great institutions were created prior to the Whitlam tenure.

People need to remember that the Whitlam governments ran from Dec 1972 to Nov 1975, that just short of 3 years.
It takes far longer than 2 years and 11 months for genuine reforms to occur, and most of the reforms attributed to Gough Whitlam were in fact begun well before Whitlam came to power.
In many many ways, the Whitlam government was very lucky that it succeeded the already reforming Gorton government of 1968 to 1971.
Many of those then Liberal parliamentarians continued to vote for reforms that they had begun. That's why, in many cases, the Whitlam government was able to continue that golden era of reform that sprung from the 1960s.

I'll concede that Medicare was a great reform enacted by the Whitlam government.
And the Law Reform Commission was set up by the Whitlam government.
And, I did get my first degree for free, care of the Whitlam government.

Personally, I believe that the role played by the earlier Gorton government has been underrated terribly.
Further, by way of the manner of its dismissal, Gough has been overly enlarged into a Robin Hood-like character.

In any event, the one that I will look forward to the most will be the passing of Kerr's Cur, the worthless dog John Malcolm Fraser. He'll go straight to Hell.
Before Whitlam came to office, Fraser had taken key roles in the destabilising of both the Gorton and McMahon governments, and only worked to serve his sole objective of his own Prime Ministership.
Furthermore, Australia desperately needed a government that could retake control after the mess left by the Whitlan government.
The Whitlam government ran just short of 3 years.
The Fraser government ran for about 7 and a half years. For 7 and a half years, the Fraser government sat on its hands and did nothing.
Not only did Fraser do nothing for Australia, but he also messed up the reforming of Rhodesia into Zimbabwe in 1980, handing the whole country over to the dictator Mugabe.
And I heard Fraser on the radio today trying to re-write his history.
Both Fraser and his more than useless Treasurer John Howard should be damned.

When Fraser goes, it will be a double good riddance!
 
Fraser actually turned into a decent person post politics, credit to him for calling out the LNP on their extremist policies.
 
bullus_hit said:
Fraser actually turned into a decent person post politics, credit to him for calling out the LNP on their extremist policies.

Yeh, its a true wonder to become a decent person writing your memoirs, after you were a regressive non-effectual bastard when in power.
Fraser commanded both houses for a considerable number of years and did nothing in that time.
 
Phantom said:
In regards to social reform, this had begun well before the Whitlam era.
The ending of the infamous White Australia Policy was progressively dismantled in 1949, again in 1966, and the last step was in 1973. So, it began well before Whitlam.
The same voting rights were given to Aboriginals as other Australians in 1965. Had nothing to do with the Whitlam era.
The winding down of Australia's participation in Vietnam began in 1970, with nearly all troops withdrawn by 1971. The last Australian troops left in late 1972, just when Whitlam came to power. So, don't let them tell you that Whitlam ended the Vietnam War either.

Troop non-replacement and withdrawal began in 1970, but an official end to Australian combat was not announced until 1973 by the then GG Paul Hasluck. The writing was on the wall by the late sixties - it's part of the tragedy of that conflict that weak governments in Australia and the US were not strong enough to end it sooner. Whitlam as well as going to China before Nixon, also recognised the new Vietnamese government. So the official end of Australia's involvement to the Vietnam War was under Whitlam, don't let Phantom tell you otherwise.

"Social reform" had of course commenced before Whitlam - he didn't invent it. He just made very significant social reforms.

People need to remember that the Whitlam governments ran from Dec 1972 to Nov 1975, that just short of 3 years.
It takes far longer than 2 years and 11 months for genuine reforms to occur, and most of the reforms attributed to Gough Whitlam were in fact begun well before Whitlam came to power.


Rubbish. Remember the first 90 days? Medicare. Free university. No-fault divorce. What are they if not genuine reforms? Whitlam's government put though so many significant pieces of legislation in this period we've never seen the like again. Of course, all governments "reform" to a greater or lesser extent. The 70s were a time of social reform in the West anyway - if it hadn't have been Gough, it may have been done by someone less spectacular and over a greater length of time.

Personally, I believe that the role played by the earlier Gorton government has been underrated terribly.
Further, by way of the manner of its dismissal, Gough has been overly enlarged into a Robin Hood-like character.

That's true - at least in part. Labor would have lost a subsequent election and the Dismissal would not have been written in our history. Gough would have still been remembered as a great orator and reformer nevertheless.

n any event, the one that I will look forward to the most will be the passing of Kerr's Cur, the worthless dog John Malcolm Fraser. He'll go straight to Hell.
The Fraser government ran for about 7 and a half years. For 7 and a half years, the Fraser government sat on its hands and did nothing.
Not only did Fraser do nothing for Australia, but he also messed up the reforming of Rhodesia into Zimbabwe in 1980, handing the whole country over to the dictator Mugabe.
And I heard Fraser on the radio today trying to re-write his history.
Both Fraser and his more than useless Treasurer John Howard should be damned.

When Fraser goes, it will be a double good riddance!

Tell us how you really feel Phantom. :hihi

Fraser is a complex character for me - some good, some bad. He definitely backed the wrong horse with Mugabe. On the other hand, Whitlam refused to allow South Vietnamese refugees into Australia after the end of the war - Fraser and the Liberals did, to their endless credit.
 
Peaka said:
Like I said nice re-write of history by SMH.

Last combat troops left Vietnam in November 1971. Whitlam came to power in December 1972.

https://www.awm.gov.au/atwar/vietnam/

But hey why let facts get in the way of a good story.

pisser. your post prior to this implied everything written was wrong. you managed to pick out one item from a very long list, and even that wasn't actually wrong. Classic far right tactic, pick one piece of info out of a lot of info that may or may not be debateable, take it out of context and dismiss it as wrong or crazy, then use that one decontextualised item to then draw a long bow and suggest that therefore, the whole lot is wrong and crazy. Andrew Bolt 101
 
There are many exaggeration in the article. I merely highlighted one of them. The comment about the NGA is also misleading. We agree to disagree.
 
Peaka said:
Like I said nice re-write of history by SMH.

.....
But hey why let facts get in the way of a good story.

You actually said nice rewriting of history "on this thread". You said it before the article had been posted on here.

......

Indeed. :hihi

Edit...quoted for acccuracy

Peaka said:
Whilst I feel for the Whitlam family in their time of loss the re-writing of history on this thread is truly remarkable.
 
tigersnake said:
Classic far right tactic, pick one piece of info out of a lot of info that may or may not be debateable, take it out of context and dismiss it as wrong or crazy, then use that one decontextualised item to then draw a long bow and suggest that therefore, the whole lot is wrong and crazy. Andrew Bolt 101

Bolt is a Richmond supporter.
 
rosy23 said:
Might be a PREnder too ;)

Wioldn't be surprised. Actually, you just need to listen to the RFC Talking Tigers podcasts to know AC and Greenberg at a minimum read PRE, if not post.