Coronavirus

[AngryAnt]

When it results in real world deaths, riots, civil unrest etc then that’s too laissez-faire to me.

Information is power. And false information being widely broadcast leads to horrific consequences.

Fair points. The real danger now is that as the real clinical evidence for Ivermectin fades away to nothing you see the shift I predicted - they want to keep their audience, so they shift even further to the anti-vax anti-big-Pharma, Plandemic type narratives.

And you are right - people who reject vaccines for these quack cures are dying.

 

[MD Jazz]

A video for the group thinkers out there.

Did he really just tweet that? Dr. Vinay Prasad takes on Big Pharma, Big Medicine, and his own colleagues — with glee

Dr. Vinay Prasad crusades for the principle that scientific evidence, not hope or hype, should guide medical practice. He's made plenty of enemies.

www.statnews.com

Prasad is an interesting guy.

Not everyone is a fan of his commentary on the pandemic response

https://cancerletter.com/the-cancer-letter/20211008_4/

 

[AngryAnt]

the new pfizer drug has protease inhibiting mechanism is ,you guessed it, an in-silico study.

This one is a classic case of the type of intellectual dishonesty of the likes of Dr John Campbell. It turns out its really, really hard to measure complex pharmacological interactions in vivo - particularly very subtle ones like viral replication inhibition. This is why they do studies in vitro, understand the mechanism and then try the drug in vivo, and then measure the patient outcomes.

Of course protease inhibition has never been demonstrated for Ivermectin even in vitro - Indian scientists did a computer simulation on the Ivermectin molecules and wrote a paper stating based on the simulation, Ivermectin might be a protease inhibitor. Damn lamby.

Lamb falls for this three card trick of course as it confirms his preconceptions - Ivermectin works, big pharma had to come up with a way to make more money, so they made a newer, more expensive version of Ivermectin.

Dr John has a hungry YouTube audience to entertain, he's just doing his thing.

 

[DavidSSS]

Lamb falls for this three card trick of course as it confirms his preconceptions - Ivermectin works, big pharma had to come up with a way to make more money, so they made a newer, more expensive version of Ivermectin.

But you gotta fight BIG PHARMA, you know, because Ivermectin is provided by that well known mob called Merck who are just a benevolent society, oh, wait a minute, $US48 billion in revenue in 2020, hmm, does that make them Big Pharma?

Yeah, Ivermectin, like most drugs which have been around a long time, is now a cheap drug. But it isn't as if it isn't part of the same Big Pharma that produce most of the drugs. Not as if it is a treatment for COVID either.

Still no idea why anyone would be touting this crap.

DS

 

[AngryAnt]

But you gotta fight BIG PHARMA, you know, because Ivermectin is provided by that well known mob called Merck who are just a benevolent society, oh, wait a minute, $US48 billion in revenue in 2020, hmm, does that make them Big Pharma?

Yeah, Ivermectin, like most drugs which have been around a long time, is now a cheap drug. But it isn't as if it isn't part of the same Big Pharma that produce most of the drugs. Not as if it is a treatment for COVID either.

Still no idea why anyone would be touting this crap.

DS

Now that Big Pharma are coming up with real Covid disease treatments (some expensive, some cheap), makes sense that Ivermectin types will claim that these are just Ivermectin rebadged (or the latest spin, they have the same pharmacological mechanism!)

The Principle and Together trials did identify that some existing, common and cheap drugs do have efficacy - unfortunately, Ivermectin isn't one of these. Strange that big Pharma recognises other cheap meds that help but not Ivermectin.

On Roar's point, the Ivermectin scam has cost lives. In Romania there is widespread vaccine skepticism and Ivermectin was promoted for months on mainstream TV news and talk shows. The result? Exploding cases and deaths. Story here about how frontline doctors feel about this.

Romanian doctors issue 'cry of despair' amid virus surge

Romanian doctors sent an open letter Wednesday titled “a cry of despair” as the country's overwhelmed and deteriorated health care system copes with a record-setting surge of coronavirus infections and deaths. The College of Physicians of Bucharest, a nongovernmental organization representing...

news.yahoo.com

 

[lamb22]

The majority of SARS-CoV-2-specific antibodies in COVID-19 patients with obesity are autoimmune and not neutralizing - International Journal of Obesity

Obesity decreases the secretion of SARS-CoV-2-specific IgG antibodies in the blood of COVID-19 patients. How obesity impacts the quality of the antibodies secreted, however, is not understood. Therefore, the objective of this study is to evaluate the presence of neutralizing versus autoimmune...

www.nature.com

Interesting study that shows that obese people don't seem to produce sufficient neutralising antibodies and worryingly produce pathogenic antibodies instead.

Might be another reason why highly vaccinated western countries like UK, Germany Israel have high cases per head of populations whereas regions like Indonesia and Uttar Pradesh have low case numbers despite lower vaccination rates.

Also illustrates that a one size fits all vaccination strategy might not work for obese people, unless of course we mandate they get a jab monthly ( and bugger the pathogens)

 

[lamb22]

This one is a classic case of the type of intellectual dishonesty of the likes of Dr John Campbell. It turns out its really, really hard to measure complex pharmacological interactions in vivo - particularly very subtle ones like viral replication inhibition. This is why they do studies in vitro, understand the mechanism and then try the drug in vivo, and then measure the patient outcomes.

Of course protease inhibition has never been demonstrated for Ivermectin even in vitro - Indian scientists did a computer simulation on the Ivermectin molecules and wrote a paper stating based on the simulation, Ivermectin might be a protease inhibitor. Damn lamby.

Lamb falls for this three card trick of course as it confirms his preconceptions - Ivermectin works, big pharma had to come up with a way to make more money, so they made a newer, more expensive version of Ivermectin.

Dr John has a hungry YouTube audience to entertain, he's just doing his thing.

Nice truncating of my quote Anty. Disengenuous as ever you answer your own strawman argument again without even referring to my albeit truncated point, You're a marvel of mendacity.

So you criticise the ivermectin in silico study the other day but don't address Dr Campbell's point that the only study that shows the Pfizer drug has protease inhibiting qualities is itself an in silico study.

You're a lost cause Anty. You are either too stupid or mendacious to deal wth.

I am also in awe of your ability to teach us all how to suck eggs after a 5 minute google search as well as your tendency to equate headlines, dodgy internet fact check sites and anecdotes with 'scientific literature'. At least you give me a laugh so you're not altogether useless.

As for apparent confusion about in vivo, in silico and in vitro maybe these words don't mean what you think they mean Vizzini. Is the Indian (note pejorative white middle class privilege showing) ivermectin computer study qualitatively different from the superior Pfizer 'in silico' study?

 

[AngryAnt]

I am also in awe of your ability to teach us all how to suck eggs after a 5 minute google search as well as your tendency to equate headlines, dodgy internet fact check sites and anecdotes with 'scientific literature'. At least you give me a laugh so you're not altogether useless.

Using Google? we are both guilty of that. I've said repeatedly here I'm not a medical researcher and neither are you, but strangely you never address this point. And we both use Google to look things up. That's not really a burn like you think it is.

Fair point on the in silico, I should have checked that that does in fact mean computer simulation. That's another difference between you and I - I can admit an error. I learned from a young age that failing to do so just makes you look stupid and stubborn.

Point remains that protease inhibition has never been shown for Ivermectin outside of a computer model - it's still theoretical. And sorry lamb, whatever Dr John claims Pfizer has done in vitro studies on the protease inhibition mechanism https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-r...-initiates-phase-1-study-novel-oral-antiviral Did Dr John Campbell claim they haven't? Whoops. That was in March this year, before they moved on to clinical trials.

Of course Pfizer could just be completely lying that they've done in vitro studies already. In the world of the conspiracy theorist, all evidence against the theory is part of the conspiracy right?

The world will move on. Ivermectin has so far failed as a clinical treatment for Covid19 in all well-conducted studies - and these other drugs have shown promise in real clinical trials that (so far) have not been shown to be fraudulent or poor quality.

Of course the Principle trial is ongoing, as well as the big studies testing Ivermectin in the US - so the jury is still out. I'll eat my words if Ivermectin suddenly is proved effective in a real clinical trial - will you do the same if it isn't? Or will you just retreat further into the shadow world of conspiracy theory on Zero Hedge? I'm betting the latter.

Have a good Saturday lamb. Recent news on this forum tells me that life is precious and we probably shouldn't waste it fighting each other.

 

[lamb22]

The bait and switch seems to be going well. We are heading for normality, There are sadly deaths each day predominantly in the 60s 70s 80s and90s age groups but we don't get breakdowns of their vaccination status anymore.

Hospitalisations and intensive care numbers are now broken down into vaccinated and not fully vaccinated blurring the distinction between those that have had one shot and those that are unvaccinated.

It would be nice if information was provided for public health purposes rather than PR purposes. I'm sure the intent is noble to encourage vaccination but it only leads to more distrust when inconvenient numbers are hidden and convenient numbers are amped up to the max.

 

[AngryAnt]

The majority of SARS-CoV-2-specific antibodies in COVID-19 patients with obesity are autoimmune and not neutralizing - International Journal of Obesity

Obesity decreases the secretion of SARS-CoV-2-specific IgG antibodies in the blood of COVID-19 patients. How obesity impacts the quality of the antibodies secreted, however, is not understood. Therefore, the objective of this study is to evaluate the presence of neutralizing versus autoimmune...

www.nature.com

Interesting study that shows that obese people don't seem to produce sufficient neutralising antibodies and worryingly produce pathogenic antibodies instead.

Might be another reason why highly vaccinated western countries like UK, Germany Israel have high cases per head of populations whereas regions like Indonesia and Uttar Pradesh have low case numbers despite lower vaccination rates.

Also illustrates that a one size fits all vaccination strategy might not work for obese people, unless of course we mandate they get a jab monthly ( and bugger the pathogens)

Having actually lived and worked in Indonesia, I'd suggest that low case numbers are more to do with a lack of testing. Government in Indonesia can only afford to do basic testing in urban areas, and often people who are sick must pay for their own tests - at least this was the case last year when I lived in Jakarta. A PCR test was equivalent to one month's salary for a typical resident of Jakarta.

Anecdotal evidence, but a middle class friend of mine who was trying to employ a nanny - these are typically girls from rural areas who come to Jakarta through an agency and bunk together in rooms until they get assigned to a family - was getting any prospective nannies tested. 75% positive from a sample of 10.

I think in cities like Jakarta Covid is already totally endemic - most people have already been exposed.

Here's some information that I looked up on Google about concern over testing rates in Indonesia. Is Al Jazeera OK as a source on Indonesia? Hard to say.

Indonesia quells COVID, but is a new wave on the way?

Experts worry about outbreaks in provinces, as situation in Jakarta, Java and Bali comes under control.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[AngryAnt]

The bait and switch seems to be going well. We are heading for normality, There are sadly deaths each day predominantly in the 60s 70s 80s and90s age groups but we don't get breakdowns of their vaccination status anymore.

Hospitalisations and intensive care numbers are now broken down into vaccinated and not fully vaccinated blurring the distinction between those that have had one shot and those that are unvaccinated.

It would be nice if information was provided for public health purposes rather than PR purposes. I'm sure the intent is noble to encourage vaccination but it only leads to more distrust when inconvenient numbers are hidden and convenient numbers are amped up to the max.

Waiting to see if you are willing to admit you and Dr John got the Pfizer in vitro stuff wrong. Think of it as a test of your character.

 

[lamb22]

Using Google? we are both guilty of that. I've said repeatedly here I'm not a medical researcher and neither are you, but strangely you never address this point. And we both use Google to look things up. That's not really a burn like you think it is.

Fair point on the in silico, I should have checked that that does in fact mean computer simulation. That's another difference between you and I - I can admit an error. I learned from a young age that failing to do so just makes you look stupid and stubborn.

Point remains that protease inhibition has never been shown for Ivermectin outside of a computer model - it's still theoretical. And sorry lamb, whatever Dr John claims Pfizer has done in vitro studies on the protease inhibition mechanism https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-r...-initiates-phase-1-study-novel-oral-antiviral Did Dr John Campbell claim they haven't? Whoops.

Of course Pfizer could just be completely lying that they've done in vitro studies already. In the world of the conspiracy theorist, all evidence against the theory is part of the conspiracy right?

The world will move on. Ivermectin has so far failed as a clinical treatment for Covid19 in all well-conducted studies - and these other drugs have shown promise in real clinical trials that (so far) have not been shown to be fraudulent or poor quality.

Of course the Principle trial is ongoing, as well as the big studies testing Ivermectin in the US - so the jury is still out. I'll eat my words if Ivermectin suddenly is proved effective in a real clinical trial - will you do the same if it isn't? Or will you just retreat further into the shadow world of conspiracy theory on Zero Hedge? I'm betting the latter.

Have a good Saturday lamb. Recent news on this forum tells me that life is precious and we probably shouldn't waste it fighting each other.

Happy to move on Anty. We'll agree to disagree on whether Ivermectin has been effective in a clinical setting as there are myriads of clinicians that will testify to the fact it has and numerous studies amongst health workers in numerous countries that show benefit as a prophylaxsis . Also I consider a lot of real world evidence in its use in Africa, India and Indonesia is 'indicative' that it may be beneficial.

My main thesis anyway has always been that the public health response was too much focussed on transmission and not enough on treatment, particularly early treatment was ignored. As it turns out this disease is actually very treatable. You've now got two anti virals developed by drug companies that seem to be very effective. Two FLCCC treatments that were considered misinformation, Prednizone and Fluvoxomine are either part of the protocol or acknowledged to be of benefit. So many other interventions including repurposed anti androgens or anti parasitics have also shown benefit in different settings. Ivermectin sits in that class.

There are many ways to skin a cat. The narrow Public Health focus on transmission and vaccination has come at a cost (especially for the isolated ederly). The confected campaign against, and censorship of, Ivermectin is indicative of something very wrong in our Public Health discourse. I suppose we'll find out in due course whether the reasons for that were misguided but well intentioned public health policy or something more tawdry.

 

[lamb22]

Waiting to see if you are willing to admit you and Dr John got the Pfizer in vitro stuff wrong. Think of it as a test of your character.

Dr John might have got it wrong. He mentioned studies that were publicly available so its a question of whether the study mentioned in that press release is publicly available. Dr John will make the appropriate correction if he is wrong, I am sure.

 

[AngryAnt]

Dr John might have got it wrong. He mentioned studies that were publicly available so its a question of whether the study mentioned in that press release is publicly available. Dr John will make the appropriate correction if he is wrong, I am sure.

That makes it much worse. He claims to be an unbiased, professional researcher on these issues and he excluded information which I found in ten seconds using Google.

He's a scammer.

And blaming your source now? I manned up and admitted I got in wrong on the definition of in silica, you need to man up and do the same. Clean slate mate, then we can start again on a more civil basis.

 

[lamb22]

Having actually lived and worked in Indonesia, I'd suggest that low case numbers are more to do with a lack of testing. Government in Indonesia can only afford to do basic testing in urban areas, and often people who are sick must pay for their own tests - at least this was the case last year when I lived in Jakarta. A PCR test was equivalent to one month's salary for a typical resident of Jakarta.

Anecdotal evidence, but a middle class friend of mine who was trying to employ a nanny - these are typically girls from rural areas who come to Jakarta through an agency and bunk together in rooms until they get assigned to a family - was getting any prospective nannies tested. 75% positive from a sample of 10.

I think in cities like Jakarta Covid is already totally endemic - most people have already been exposed.

Here's some information that I looked up on Google about concern over testing rates in Indonesia. Is Al Jazeera OK as a source on Indonesia? Hard to say.

Indonesia quells COVID, but is a new wave on the way?

Experts worry about outbreaks in provinces, as situation in Jakarta, Java and Bali comes under control.

www.aljazeera.com

Aljazeera is better than your CNNs but basically because it provides a third world counterpoint so to speak. There are a number of unknowns. First John Campbell had a video a while ago showing that the overall COVID death rate of 5 million world wide is most likely under reported when you compare it to excess death figures. The estimates from a number of sources range from possibly double around 10 million to as many as 19 million. Areas like India and Indonesia are areas which appear susceptible to underreporting. But even the US seems to be shy a few hundred thousand. Interestingly Brazil's numbers seem to match up with excess deaths as do the UKs. I like to use Israeli figures and data when I can as they seem to be really on the ball. The other thing as you say is acquired immunity through infections. But obesity may play into the mix.

Interestingly though when you look at India and acknowledging the above confounders the provinces that have/had mandated Ivermectin like Goa, Uttar Pradesh and Delhi have less cases and deaths per head than the national average.

 

[lamb22]

That makes it much worse. He claims to be an unbiased, professional researcher on these issues and he excluded information which I found in ten seconds using Google.

He's a scammer.

And blaming your source now? I manned up and admitted I got in wrong on the definition of in silica, you need to man up and do the same. Clean slate mate, then we can start again on a more civil basis.

Dr John made the claim and I posted it on here, I attributed the claim to him in both my posts, Because I had not done the research on this matter I did not make the claim. I am actually very careful in that regard. I am not certain that he is wrong at this point in time. ( I actually like to see and read the studies mentioned) If he is I am happy to say that the argument posited in my post was wrong. If we take the Pfizer Press release as accurate then the statement that only in silica evidence was available was incorrect.

 

[AngryAnt]

Dr John made the claim and I posted it on here, I attributed the claim to him in both my posts, Because I had not done the research on this matter I did not make the claim. I am actually very careful in that regard. I am not certain that he is wrong at this point in time. ( I actually like to see and read the studies mentioned) If he is I am happy to say that the argument posited in my post was wrong. If we take the Pfizer Press release as accurate then the statement that only in silica evidence was available was incorrect.

OK. I take that position that once I use evidence to make an argument, I'm responsible for choosing to use that evidence, so if it proves to be wrong, I man up and admit I was wrong, and my argument was wrong.

 

[AngryAnt]

Here's the journalistic evidence that Pfizer has done in vitro and in vivo trials of their new drug.

COVID-19: New oral antiviral from Pfizer looks hopeful

Pfizer has recently published a paper demonstrating that its candidate antiviral drug is safe and has antiviral effects against SARS-CoV-2.

www.medicalnewstoday.com

Helpfully, the article also links to Pfizer's publically available paper. Published in Science, only one of the most famous journals in the world.

Science | AAAS

www.science.org

I'm a rank amateur and using Google I found this in 5 minutes. Dr John is either extremely poor at what he claims to be able to do or he's a liar.

 

[RoarEmotion]

Anti vax and invermectin shills prey on societies lack of math skills IMO. This article may be confirmation bias as I’ve said surviving covid is a maths and science test. The behaviours of the anti-vax religion demonstrated in this article are truly horrible.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/math-covid-vaccinations-jeremy-mcanulty/2021/11/12/bfe89018-417f-11ec-a3aa-0255edc02eb7_story.html

@lamb22 you have posted correlations as causation for invermectin and continue to post using that logic.

This is your view looking for data to support it. it’s complete crap. At best it means it warrants further investigation. But so far further investigation has drawn blanks (and fraud when it hasn’t) so you’d think as society we’d be better off putting resources elsewhere. Sharing correlations as facts is leading to death and misery. It’s akin to still saying the earth is flat and trump won the election. If you want to live in a mirror world of people reflecting that viewpoint then good luck to you.

I haven’t seen a single poster here be against hoping that IVM works for covid and be willing to accept that if science backed it up. Unfortunately it hasn’t.

Would anything change your mind @lamb22 as to IVM being useless for covid? What would you need to see?

I know personally I’ve asserted things to be true that turned out to be complete crap and when I look back I had some pretty embarrassing behaviour to support that worldview I had at the time and hurt some relationships doing it. In the end it was maths in that too that eventually flipped me.

 

[lamb22]

Anti vax and invermectin shills prey on societies lack of math skills IMO.

Lucky they don't prey on lack of english skills. Sorry cheap shot, just kidding.

I don't know what post or statement you are railing about. Is it this one?

"Interestingly though when you look at India and acknowledging the above confounders the provinces that have/had mandated Ivermectin like Goa, Uttar Pradesh and Delhi have less cases and deaths per head than the national average."

if it is, I am confused as it explicitly acknowledges other variables which might affect the outcome. Also it is a statement with no specific conclusion.

I do agree with you about the confusion between association and causation. What passes for most of nutritional science is pure observational association. When they eventually undertake RCTs about 80% of these associations which are treated as truths in nutrition science are found to be false. Unfortunately regulatory authorities continue to behave as if they are true.

Cheers