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IMPORTANT // Please look after your loved ones, yourself and be kind to others. If you are feeling that the world is too hard to handle there is always help - I implore you not to hesitate in contacting one of these wonderful organisations Lifeline and Beyond Blue ... and I'm sure reaching out to our PRE community we will find a way to help. T.
Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split and merged]
- Thread starter Disco08
- Start date
Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thre
Yep that is sad. Imagine how many turned and fled
Cant stand anyone that forces their beliefs on others.
Whenever I agreed with my old man on stuff like this, he'd say that it had taken years for him to develop his own set of prejudices, and I should rack off and go get my own
evo said:I used to live across the road from the G'.There was an abortion clinic a few 100 metres up from us.Michael said:
Every saturday morning it was picketed by anti abortionist Christians hurling invective.I always felt really sorry for the poor girls scurrying past them to make the hardest decision of their life.
Yep that is sad. Imagine how many turned and fled
Cant stand anyone that forces their beliefs on others.
Whenever I agreed with my old man on stuff like this, he'd say that it had taken years for him to develop his own set of prejudices, and I should rack off and go get my own
Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thre
All sides should be presented.
Everyone's decision is their own and on their conscience. No one should be pressured unduly by anyone, whether family, boyfriend or whoever else.
Tiger74 said:
All sides should be presented.
Everyone's decision is their own and on their conscience. No one should be pressured unduly by anyone, whether family, boyfriend or whoever else.
Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thread]
Agreed. What has happened though is that the counsellors are actually being asked to push an anti-abortion line. If you ring up and ask for advice and details of a clinic to go to they will refuse to help you.
Jools said:
Agreed. What has happened though is that the counsellors are actually being asked to push an anti-abortion line. If you ring up and ask for advice and details of a clinic to go to they will refuse to help you.
Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thread]
Wasn't trying to be emotive. I used the wrong word in a hurry. You are correct in what you say.
I think life begins at the moment of conception when a unique human individual has been created (zygote). Prior to this (sperm & eggs?) no such individual exists. I think this is both a good logical & scientific standpoint.
The whole debate turns on this issue. The deliberate taking of a human life is murder, so if you accept the above then you can't justify abortion or IVF by any argument.
Panthera tigris FC said:
Wasn't trying to be emotive. I used the wrong word in a hurry. You are correct in what you say.
I think life begins at the moment of conception when a unique human individual has been created (zygote). Prior to this (sperm & eggs?) no such individual exists. I think this is both a good logical & scientific standpoint.
The whole debate turns on this issue. The deliberate taking of a human life is murder, so if you accept the above then you can't justify abortion or IVF by any argument.
Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thre
If a human with a soul is created at the moment of conception, how do you explain embryos which split after conception creating two or more separate people? Or how do you explain two embryos fusing into one (chimeras)?
If a human with a soul is created at the moment of conception, how do you explain embryos which split after conception creating two or more separate people? Or how do you explain two embryos fusing into one (chimeras)?
Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thre
I accept your points on the basis of this debate.
However, I accept that all of the examples provided only have the potential for life, but none of them are a 'person' so to speak (including the gametes). None of them are viable for long outside of the uterus and the birth of the neonate will only occur after sufficient gestation.
I also think that the decision to terminate a pregnancy has nothing to do with me, but for the mother and it is never an easy decision to terminate. When it comes down to it I only advocate for the mothers right to choose and have control over her own body.
Djevv said:
I accept your points on the basis of this debate.
However, I accept that all of the examples provided only have the potential for life, but none of them are a 'person' so to speak (including the gametes). None of them are viable for long outside of the uterus and the birth of the neonate will only occur after sufficient gestation.
I also think that the decision to terminate a pregnancy has nothing to do with me, but for the mother and it is never an easy decision to terminate. When it comes down to it I only advocate for the mothers right to choose and have control over her own body.
Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thre
Are you sure your're not a Jesuit Disco, coming up with questions like that?
I'm not ashamed to say I have no idea!
To me questions like this are in the region of God knows but I don't think we ever will! :-[
Disco08 said:
Are you sure your're not a Jesuit Disco, coming up with questions like that?
I'm not ashamed to say I have no idea!
To me questions like this are in the region of God knows but I don't think we ever will! :-[
Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thre
Something that takes human lives deliberately is morally wrong regardless of whether you believe in souls or not. It's murder. Thats why we have legally and scientifically redefined when an embryo becomes human. The latest is 'when it becomes viable outside the womb' this is a very fuzzy line and is easily stepped across when convenient.
I think my simple and clear definition makes far more sense.
Disco08 said:
Something that takes human lives deliberately is morally wrong regardless of whether you believe in souls or not. It's murder. Thats why we have legally and scientifically redefined when an embryo becomes human. The latest is 'when it becomes viable outside the womb' this is a very fuzzy line and is easily stepped across when convenient.
I think my simple and clear definition makes far more sense.
Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thre
Can you provide examples where this definition is being encroached upon, let alone stepped across when convenient?
So you think the ball of cells that makes up the blastocyst is a 'human life', equivalent to a new born baby (or even late gestation foetus?)
Djevv said:
Can you provide examples where this definition is being encroached upon, let alone stepped across when convenient?
So you think the ball of cells that makes up the blastocyst is a 'human life', equivalent to a new born baby (or even late gestation foetus?)
Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thre
Your definition says it is morally wrong to destroy 150 cells (A fly's brain has 100000 cells) to research cures to countless diseases which cause untold suffering throughout the world. I think your clear but simplistic definition makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
Djevv said:
Your definition says it is morally wrong to destroy 150 cells (A fly's brain has 100000 cells) to research cures to countless diseases which cause untold suffering throughout the world. I think your clear but simplistic definition makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thre
Really, it is making viable human embryos to experiment on something you think is 'just fine'? Sorry I cant see that as good ethics.
What you are in effect saying here is that the ends justify the means.
Why is the number of cells the issue?
Disco08 said:
Really, it is making viable human embryos to experiment on something you think is 'just fine'? Sorry I cant see that as good ethics.
What you are in effect saying here is that the ends justify the means.
Why is the number of cells the issue?
Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thread]
Out of interest djevv, do you apply your principals in regard to killing to other living creatures or only to humans? Are you comfortable with killing insects, vermin, animals for human consumption etc? Am interested to know whether God would value human life above the lives of his other creatures.
Out of interest djevv, do you apply your principals in regard to killing to other living creatures or only to humans? Are you comfortable with killing insects, vermin, animals for human consumption etc? Am interested to know whether God would value human life above the lives of his other creatures.
Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thread]
JFYI Jay covered this before I think, saying animals had no soul and they dont go to heaven (dont tell my wife there is no such thing as "puppy heaven")
rosy23 said:
JFYI Jay covered this before I think, saying animals had no soul and they dont go to heaven (dont tell my wife there is no such thing as "puppy heaven")
Re: Contraception, abortion and stem-cell research [Split from Christianity thre
Because, with 150 they obviously don't have a brain. They actually don't even have neurons so there is no suffering. As I said, at the stage they are taken they can still split or fuse so I think it's a long bow to draw to say that they have already become a human being.
Of course it's an argument of the end justifying the means. The end is increased knowledge of almost every disease on earth, I don't see how taking 150 cells with the characteristics I just described from willing donors doesn't justify that.
Djevv said:
Because, with 150 they obviously don't have a brain. They actually don't even have neurons so there is no suffering. As I said, at the stage they are taken they can still split or fuse so I think it's a long bow to draw to say that they have already become a human being.
Of course it's an argument of the end justifying the means. The end is increased knowledge of almost every disease on earth, I don't see how taking 150 cells with the characteristics I just described from willing donors doesn't justify that.
