capital punishment..ivan milat..j.knight.p.dupas..and any other scum

[Liverpool]

livers i would love to see a referendum on it.let the people decide

Whoever the Government is, they will never have a referendum on it.

Can you imagine the outcry if they had a referendum, and the "vote yes for the noose" got up......it'd be like the Republic one we had....the do-gooders would be crying about the question was worded wrong and we'd have to do it over and over again, until the "vote no" vote won. :-\

While I have a tough stance on these scumbags we named....I would be happy to forgo my "kill the scum" policy, if the families of the victims had the final say in what sentence got carried out to the person found guilty of the abhorrent crime.
If that is the noose, then so be it...but even if they choose life in prison, or 20 years, or whatever...at least they have had some closure.
The victims and families of victims in Hoddle Street have no closure at all, with this idiot having more education than someone who passed Year 12, has more freedom in 2014 than any of the 7 he killed, and has been trying to contact victim's families from his jail cell.
This doesn't sound like a fair punishment to me for the crime he committed.

 

[RemoteTiger]

Capital punishment is not the answer to serious crime
Capital punishment has been proven wrong on many many occassions - where an executed man has been proven innocent months or years later.

The Australian Justice system is not good enough to prove a defendant that guilty to then have him then sentenced to death. (Even when the defendant pleads guilty)

There are too many legal areas for error and no margin for the mitigation of risk when it comes to capital paunishment.

And lastly it has been written that those who have committed the henious crimes and serve their long sentences (some never to be released) serve them in such shocking conditions that they themsleves wish they had been executed - therefore in these circumstance I believe life in such conditions is a worse sentence than execution.

ssstone, Livers - pull up your collars a tad - your rednecks are showing again :hihi :hihi

 

[ssstone]

yes i did disco.... or there could be a simple meaning,shown to be impossible by whomm?the indy press?.....of course richard would deny it,just like boris claims that ivan did it,its called distancing ones self........the footage i remember had one member carrying a box under one arm,didnt look heavy to me.....disco it took three coppers to lift a heavy log off gabors body ,ivan was not alone in these killings.so there are a lot of unanswered questions.tell me disco why did they pick out ivan?and dont tell me it was because of the rapes in the 70's that he wasnt convicted of.

 

[Liverpool]

Capital punishment is not the answer to serious crime
Capital punishment has been proven wrong on many many occassions - where an executed man has been proven innocent months or years later.
The Australian Justice system is not good enough to prove a defendant that guilty to then have him then sentenced to death. (Even when the defendant pleads guilty)
There are too many legal areas for error and no margin for the mitigation of risk when it comes to capital paunishment.
And lastly it has been written that those who have committed the henious crimes and serve their long sentences (some never to be released) serve them in such shocking conditions that they themsleves wish they had been executed - therefore in these circumstance I believe life in such conditions is a worse sentence than execution.
ssstone, Livers - pull up your collars a tad - your rednecks are showing again :hihi :hihi

Fair enough Remote....but what do you think of my suggestion in my last post, about victims/familes of victims, getting a large say in the punishment handed down?

P.S:
But please don't ever tell me that the ones serving long sentences are serving them in shocking conditions.
Shopping trips, golf days....have a look at the many posts I've out up ont he "Justice" thread....the jail system here is like a bloody Hilton.

 

[Disco08]

yes i did disco....

There's a few why's in my first post on this thread you haven't answered.

shown to be impossible by whomm?the indy press?

The times shown on his work records and the estimated time of eye witness sightings of the victims. These were never brought up in Milat's trial. Why not?

boris claims that ivan did

Boris claims Ivan did it because they hated each other. The other members of Milat's rather large family all proclaim his innocence.

disco it took three coppers to lift a heavy log off gabors body

I know. Kind of points to a group of people being responsible for the murders doesn't it? They also found cigarette butts on the ground around a couple of the murder scenes yet Milat never smoked a cigarette in his life.

tell me disco why did they pick out ivan?and dont tell me it was because of the rapes in the 70's that he wasnt convicted of.

Milat had a long record apart from the alleged rape which he was acquitted of. As I said to Livers the police were under tremendous pressure to make an arrest and Milat fit the profile if not the evidence. Did you know that one of the girls involved in the earlier rape charges has since come forward, in support of Milat, to say that their allegations were entirely fabricated?

 

[ssstone]

disco i have no idea why the report was missing.and as for the report about a simalar crime with description "apparently"matching? define apparently? disco do you really believe that the coppers set ivan up and got paul onions and joanne berry to go along with it ?over 200 coppers were involved with searching milat family houses and not one disgrunteled whistle blower has stepped forward yet?

 

[RemoteTiger]

Fair enough Remote....but what do you think of my suggestion in my last post, about victims/familes of victims, getting a large say in the punishment handed down?

In turth I have not thought it through - my "knee jerk reaction" is we have a legal system that is schooled to do this work - and whilst you, I and the press can sometimes be befuddled by their sentencing there will be valid reasons that the judge has for imposing that sentence - these are rarely aired in the press and hence we never really understand why the judge gave out what we consider a light sentence.

But as I said I would need to read into it further before making a decision

But please don't ever tell me that the ones serving long sentences are serving them in shocking conditions.
Shopping trips, golf days....have a look at the many posts I've out up ont he "Justice" thread....the jail system here is like a bloody Hilton.

Some are treated like you say - most are treated like I have read - the Port Arthur massacre bloke is mentally shot from his captivity conditions that he is going insane and knows it.

The objective of our penal system is to rehabilitate prisoners into society - so they will not reoffend - is it working? I don't know because I am sure the figures are bent in such a way to say it is - but there seems to be too many reoffending for this to be true (or is that just the press with their constant flow of bad news - you know that good news never made a paper sell).

Greater minds than mine have and will tackle this complex problem of prisoner penalty and prisoner rehabilitation - will it ever work - should we be barbaric and go back to executing offenders or just giving them hell whilst inside so they learn to hate society more or should we try to bring them back into society and get them to have some pride in themselves and be able to contribute in an acceptable manner?

I had a boss years ago in the public service (back in the early 70s before I saw the light and realised where the real money is made) who was an accountant - he too joined the private sector and got caught up in a tax fraud scheme - he became the scapegoat and did time in Goulburn Jail. He has been out now for over 20 years and still to this day cannot get a job as an accountant - but he has his own retail business and is making a good contibution to his local community and his own family.

I don't know the answer mate - if I did I daresay I would be worth more money......RT

 

[Panthera tigris FC]

You aren't thinking this through. You jump up and down and make all sorts of wild claims, but you aren't thinking it through to its logical conclusion.

if you are serious about being willing to torture another human being, then there's something seriously wrong with you and you're no better than the people you claim to hate.

Totally against it.

No one has addressed 6-pack's moral dilemma --> if murder is so abhorrent, why should murder be used as a punishment/cure/solution/deterrent?

I am as shocked and disgusted as the next person when I look at what some of these individuals have done. As a society what should we do with such obviously mentally deranged individuals(and in many (most?) cases, with our current psychological therapies, irreversibly so)? The moral dilemma posed above prevents me from suggesting a 'euthanasia' approach, however the danger that such individuals pose to society as a whole suggests that indefinite incarceration is the only logical solution.

As for the conditions of that incarceration, that depends on how you see the penal system --> punitive or as a rehabilitation system (which if you know anyone that has been 'inside', our prisons are anything but)? Humans' natural emotional desire for vengeance often leads to the punitive response, but IMO such an approach achieves nothing --> it doesn't reverse their crime, it just brings society as a whole a notch down, closer to what we abhor.

I expect that some will say that it is easy to say such things until you are personally affected by such a crime. I'll cop that....I am speaking in ideals and such a crime close to home would take strong convictions to avoid the desire for vengeance. However, some individuals that have lost their closest loved ones have remained steadfast against capital punishment....they haven't forgiven the criminal...they have just refused to sink to their level.

 

[Disco08]

disco i have no idea why the report was missing

Can you come up with a reason other than it said something the investigators didn't want it to? Remember, 2 reports from separate stations plus a page from a station log book were lost, and in the case of the log book at least physically removed.

 

[Liverpool]

Fair enough Remote....but what do you think of my suggestion in my last post, about victims/familes of victims, getting a large say in the punishment handed down?

In turth I have not thought it through - my "knee jerk reaction" is we have a legal system that is schooled to do this work - and whilst you, I and the press can sometimes be befuddled by their sentencing there will be valid reasons that the judge has for imposing that sentence - these are rarely aired in the press and hence we never really understand why the judge gave out what we consider a light sentence.

But as I said I would need to read into it further before making a decision

Remote,

That's a fair call.

But maybe the media should be forced to give the sentence AND the reason for the light sentence in their newspapers, so we know exactly what is going on.

However, in the case of Julian Knight....I cannot see any reason for this person ever seeing the light of day again....and the extra kick in the arse for me and others out there, is that he's studied at the taxpayers expense in jail, while students doing the right thing are paying for HECS and books, and in some cases, missing out on a place in uni altogether.
That is plain wrong.

Now if the victims and their families had a say in what punishment should be handed down....then not only do people like Knight get a real punishment that the victims deems fit enough for the crime they committed against them, but the victims get some closure, knowing they can out him away forever.

Knight gets out in 2014...

 

[Six Pack]

Why don't you display the courage of yr convictions and kidnap him when he gets out and then torture him for the next 50 years?

 

[happytige]

Totally against............ for lots of reasons.

 

[ssstone]

Why don't you display the courage of yr convictions and kidnap him when he gets out and then torture him for the next 50 years?

stupidest thing i have read on pre to date.trust the empty vessel to come out with this *smile*.sixer everyone else on this thread is having a quiet debate ,respecting other members opinions,and its typical that it is you who start flinging *smile*.grow up you idiot

 

[Six Pack]

Why don't you display the courage of yr convictions and kidnap him when he gets out and then torture him for the next 50 years?

stupidest thing i have read on pre to date.trust the empty vessel to come out with this sh!t.sixer everyone else on this thread is having a quiet debate ,respecting other members opinions,and its typical that it is you who start flinging sh!t.grow up you idiot

Whatever you reckon mate, but have a hunt around and you'll see yr buddy putting his hand up for the dirty work!

 

[ssstone]

disco i have no idea why the report was missing

Can you come up with a reason other than it said something the investigators didn't want it to? Remember, 2 reports from separate stations plus a page from a station log book were lost, and in the case of the log book at least physically removed.

no disco i cant.and i will concede it doesnt look good.but you cannot deny that the amount of evidence that was found in the possesion of milat and his family is overwhelming.a hell of a lot to plant.

 

[Disco08]

Agreed. I'd be far more convinced that it wasn't planted if any of it was finger printed at the time (or ever actually).

 

[ssstone]

Agreed. I'd be far more convinced that it wasn't planted if any of it was finger printed at the time (or ever actually).

dico your points are valid,very valid.i just cannot see how anyone could pull this off .as ive said,milat is guilty,i think at least 2 members of his family were involved,if not others.

 

[Tiger74]

Against death penalty, as I believe we should only kill when facing mortal danger. If killing can be avoided, it should be. Sick psychos can be shoved in a hole and forgotten, killing them is unnecessary and would only be done to make us feel good.

With regards to victim influence on trials, outside their evidence I am against this. We have judges and jurys there to make impartial decisions as emotion and a passion for revenge/justice/retribution can influence a verdict and its punishment unduly.

This being said, I'm completely against the soft sentencing and discounting that is rife for some categories of crime. But this is about legislating proper sentencing parameters for crimes, and ensuring judges are aware of the outcomes of their punishments (like the fact that community service orders are a farce that are generally ignored).

 

[Disco08]

dico your points are valid,very valid.i just cannot see how anyone could pull this off .as ive said,milat is guilty,i think at least 2 members of his family were involved,if not others.

If that's the case then DNA evidence would have proved it in 2002. It didn't. If the Crown is so happy with it's case against Milat why has he never been allowed the right of appeal in over 10 years, despite huge advancement in forensic analysis and the revelations that technology can provide to a case?

And stop calling me dico Tone, I hate that dude. ;D

 

[ssstone]

dico your points are valid,very valid.i just cannot see how anyone could pull this off .as ive said,milat is guilty,i think at least 2 members of his family were involved,if not others.

If that's the case then DNA evidence would have proved it in 2002. It didn't. If the Crown is so happy with it's case against Milat why has he never been allowed the right of appeal in over 10 years, despite huge advancement in forensic analysis and the revelations that technology can provide to a case?

And stop calling me dico Tone, I hate that dude. ;D

sorry mate after 4 or 5 brown bombers i forget the s ;D not a jibe just an honest mistake as the brain runs quicker than my fingers.hands are used to a trowel not a keyboard ;D