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IMPORTANT // Please look after your loved ones, yourself and be kind to others. If you are feeling that the world is too hard to handle there is always help - I implore you not to hesitate in contacting one of these wonderful organisations Lifeline and Beyond Blue ... and I'm sure reaching out to our PRE community we will find a way to help. T.
Boat Discussion
- Thread starter Rosy
- Start date
rosy23 said:
instead we send people back to Sri Lanka never to be heard from again. or dont care if they cant leave places like Afghanistan or Syria where they may get killed anyway. or dont care if they are stuck in neighboring countries with no visa, and little chance of leading anymore than a barely subsistent life.
as an aside it appears that story was false, or at least the number was very over inflated.
Barely anyone feels comfortable with the current off shore detention situation but we rarely hear a workable alternative. SOmeone with more knowledge on this topic is morethan welcome to shoot me down, but I thought I'd have a crack...
What if we sent navy/immigration shuttle boats to Indonesia (etc) and carried out assessment on board. Those on board have the duration of the journey to Australia to convince immigration that they are genuine (or at least progress to the next level in the process), otherwise they are dropped back in Indonesia.
The naval boats would ensure safe passage while also maintaining a functional presence in the waters to keep an eye out for smuggler boats (rather than wasting naval resources just patrolling). Offering genuine asylum seekers a pathway into Australia might actually undermine the people smuggler trade - just like making Game of Thrones available to buy in Aus (outside of Foxtel) would prevent people from downloading it illegally.
It would be up to Australia to determine how many people it would collect/drop off in this system. Needless to say, the queue at the Indonesian end would be long and not be a pleasant place to be. Australia would be capable of publicly emphasising this unpleasant and challenging part of the journey to any would-be 'queue jumpers', but from a humanitarian perspective it would be better than Manus, better than Afghanistan and better than drowning. Actually I think the welfare of the people in the queue would be 'Indonesia's problem', although we could provide some covert funding to help with the basic supplies. Ultimately though, they would also be free to leave the queue if it all gets too hard and live in Indonesia.
Surely this would be a lot cheaper than the current system...
Thoughts...?
What if we sent navy/immigration shuttle boats to Indonesia (etc) and carried out assessment on board. Those on board have the duration of the journey to Australia to convince immigration that they are genuine (or at least progress to the next level in the process), otherwise they are dropped back in Indonesia.
The naval boats would ensure safe passage while also maintaining a functional presence in the waters to keep an eye out for smuggler boats (rather than wasting naval resources just patrolling). Offering genuine asylum seekers a pathway into Australia might actually undermine the people smuggler trade - just like making Game of Thrones available to buy in Aus (outside of Foxtel) would prevent people from downloading it illegally.
It would be up to Australia to determine how many people it would collect/drop off in this system. Needless to say, the queue at the Indonesian end would be long and not be a pleasant place to be. Australia would be capable of publicly emphasising this unpleasant and challenging part of the journey to any would-be 'queue jumpers', but from a humanitarian perspective it would be better than Manus, better than Afghanistan and better than drowning. Actually I think the welfare of the people in the queue would be 'Indonesia's problem', although we could provide some covert funding to help with the basic supplies. Ultimately though, they would also be free to leave the queue if it all gets too hard and live in Indonesia.
Surely this would be a lot cheaper than the current system...
Thoughts...?
Well done in having a crack at a solution.
But I see a flaw.
It currently takes us years to determine the status of an asylum seeker.
I don't know how we could work it out on a 3 day boat trip.
poppa x said:
Hrrm, I wonder how much quicker we could make it...
Maybe if each applicant knew they needed to provide X evidence by Y date, this might expedite the process.
The issue has never been whether boat people are genuine refugees. I haven't seen stats for while but I recall a few years ago that well over 90% of all boat people qualified for refugee status.martyshire said:
The issue is and has always been that there are 60 million or so refugees and stateless people in the world today and the so called queues are about 200 years long based on the numbers who are seeking resettlement. There are thousands and thousands of genuine refugees in Indonesia and elsewhere who would like to get into Australia who see no hope in waiting in that queue even if they even knew how to get on it. In fact now that boat trip are largely stopped they have no hope.
It is largely unsolvable because the numbers are too big but one thing we can do is to support efforts to help solve the problem at source which means working with agencies in the Middle east and Africa both in aid and through international efforts to solve conflict.
Our reaction as a country has been to cut aid to the lowest level in history. Since this Government has come in (and prior to last nights budget) nearly 1/3 of all budget cuts delivered by them have come from the foreign aid budget.
Sintiger said:
Absolutely no argument from me there. Ending conflict and educating women (via foreign aid) also lowers the birth rate in these countries, which will bring the world population under control. I agree we need to treat the cause mostly, rather than the symptoms; but the symptoms still remain nevertheless and still need to be addressed.
yes we need to do something but it is the rhetoric that doesn't help. It's as if stopping the boats solves the problem and of course it doesn't because all it does is move the problem back to Indonesia or Sri Lanka or Pakistan or the Middle east. Even if less people come to Indonesia because they know they can't come in by boat they stay ...where?martyshire said:
Our response last night was to cut another $275 million from foreign aid. This Government either doesn't care about anyone who is not in Australia, knows there are no votes in foreign aid or both.
As I said this is unsolvable by us but we can do all we can and we are not. We can make the lives of those millions (and I mean millions) in refugee camps around the world even slightly more humane, we can assist Indonesia in helping those stuck there, we can pressurise Sri Lanka into being accountable for the disappearance of people sent back. We can do lots of things but we choose to do less and less.
We are becoming the " I'm alright jack" country. As long as those dirty unwashed don't arrive on our shores it's someone else's problem.
Processing people on navy ships isn't going to help. Even if they could do it fast enough they will find that most of the people on the boats have genuine refugee status. So what then ? There will be a rush to set out on a boat to get intercepted by an Australian navy ship.
We have to support the chain back to the source of what happens to these people and that's about all we can do.
They would only be able to board from the queues (e.g. in Indonesia). Intercepted boats would be towed back.Sintiger said:
Again, I agree with basically everything else you have said. The reduction of foreign aid in recent years makes me ashamed to be Australian. Most people would call be a 'leftist' on this issue, but I am trying to be pragmatic. Even if we (and other developed countries) decided tomorrow to do everything we could to address the causes, it would take many years for the effects to be seen. In the meantime many refugees in detention or in transit in Indonesia and elsewhere would suffer and die.
The majority of outrage re this current situation is sparked by the symptoms, especially those that are seen while people are in our care, such as on Manus or drowning in our waters, and this outrage is directed at the boat/detention policy. The response from the right is usually "well come up with an alternative". That's where the conversation between left and right usually ends. I am trying to keep it going.
Talking about foreign aid unfortunately doesn't keep it going because it is too far removed from average Joe's perception of the problem.
Indonesia wouldnt be too please with any policy that encourages people to head there.
i dont know what the solution is, there probably isnt one.
but i agree foreign aid is a good start, and also we can stop treating those we have sent to Nauru/PNG so poorly. the current government aim is to make them suffer as much as possible, supposedly to stop others following.
i dont know what the solution is, there probably isnt one.
but i agree foreign aid is a good start, and also we can stop treating those we have sent to Nauru/PNG so poorly. the current government aim is to make them suffer as much as possible, supposedly to stop others following.
People who are in queues don't want to get on boats because they will be processed anyway and arrive as part of our intake. Why would they get on a boat unless they are years and years away? It's the desperate ones who generally get on boats.martyshire said:
We should overestimate the queue either. The vast majority of refugees in camps around the world don't even know a queue exists. UNHCR, which handles that process, has a total budget in Asia that is less that what Australia spends on offshore processing p.a. in places like Manus and Nauru. This was fact checked a year or two ago through the ABC fact checker site.
When I use the word queues I am not talking figuratively to mean immigration channels, like when people say 'queue jumpers'. I am fully aware that those channels are primarily available for the wealthy. I mean queues literally.Sintiger said:
If we had designated and transparent pickup points located in the vicinity of where we suspect people smugglers depart from, presumably there would physically be queues. I realise people may have to queue for days or even weeks, but at least people would be free to leave the queue at any time and partake in society in the country they are in if they choose to.
Whatever you think of the policies we are following this blame game against the people who are actually spending their lives helping people has to stop. It is truly disgusting.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/05/refugees-dont-self-harm-because-of-me-peter-dutton-they-self-harm-because-of-you?CMP=soc_567
Peter Dutton, what do you do between the hours of midnight and 5am? Do you sleep? If so, I really must ask – how can you?
Dozens of Australians sit up all night, every single night, comforting asylum seekers on Manus Island and Nauru. You don’t have to, therefore the task falls to the advocates.
Let me tell you what this entails, since your statement blaming advocates for suicide attempts – of actually encouraging self-harm – suggests you are clearly unaware.
It is mind-blowingly hot on Manus and Nauru during the day, so our friends there try to sleep. We, safely onshore, sit tensely in the evenings, watching for the little green light that signals people have come online. When someone doesn’t show up, there is a flurry of frantic calls between advocates; when did you last hear from them? What did they say? Are they in danger of self-harm? Who do you know in the same compound? The result of these calls can be anything from relief upon locating our friend, safe and sound, or that which is becoming more common – they’ve harmed themselves and are in International Health and Medical Services, or have been beaten by guards and thrown into solitary confinement.
We cannot sleep, Mr Dutton. We can close our eyes, but the horrors we are witnessing don’t go away. And on the rare occasions we actually do get to sleep, we know there are no guarantees that our loved ones will be unharmed when we wake.
I will never forget the last night I actually slept for eight hours – it was in September last year, and I woke to discover one of my dearest friends on Manus had stabbed himself in the neck.
He apologised over and over again, he knew he’d broken his promise not to hurt himself, but after three years of incarceration, beatings from the guards and locals, as well as untreated medical conditions, the psychological damage means we cannot expect them to always have control over their behaviours.
He has since tried to drown himself, and I live in constant fear of losing him.
Nauru is a different kind of torment for us. As a mother, I get to watch my daughter play freely, build lego houses, drink babycinos, run excitedly through the shops, all the while knowing my friends on Nauru have children who have never known that freedom.
As a woman, I beg my friends there to eat, to drink water, all the while knowing that the reason they have no appetite is due to the constant sexual harassment from the guards. I cannot imagine living with that kind of constant trauma, let alone retaining the will to live through it all, day after day.
Then there’s the vomiting, Minister. A number of advocates, including me, have become physically ill from what we are witnessing. It is of great concern to me that you do not have a similar reaction, as it seems the only logical response to such horrors. Many of us have been hospitalised for rehydration, and one for a blood transfusion due to internal bleeding. The human mind is not wired to cope with what we are seeing unfold.
How can you stand back, with all of the power you have, and allow these things to occur?
And then, when somebody on Manus or Nauru finally breaks, under the sheer weight of the trauma being inflicted upon them on a daily basis, and commits an act of self-harm, you blame the people who spend each day and night trying to prevent this from happening.
Minister Dutton, if you believe people are being coached to self-harm, or are self-harming in order to come to Australia, then you don’t understand the fundamentals of self-harm. Perhaps you should talk to one of the two psychiatric nurses who have given up their paid work here to support people on Nauru and Manus full-time.
Perhaps you should discuss it with any of the child abuse or domestic violence survivors – there are a great many of us who are supporting survivors of the same who are in offshore detention.
All day, and all night, day after day, our greatest fear is of losing the people we call our brothers, our sisters, our sons, our daughters. We know and love these people as family members, and they have shared in our lives, as we have in theirs, during this terrifying journey we’ve found ourselves on.
I’m no expert on anxiety or depression, so I’m not going to talk about the conditions that have become so prevalent in those who have sought refuge in this country, only to be sent to a place that closely resembles the popular idea of hell. Plenty of experts have already clearly stated the harm that is caused on Manus and Nauru: these statements were dismissed by your department. So it’s up to the advocates to attempt to lift the burden of crippling, untreated mental illnesses from the shoulders of our friends.
We can only do so much over the phone, however. What do you say to a sobbing man at 3am who simply cannot take any more beatings? What do you say to a frantic mother with a sick baby whose condition isn’t being treated adequately? How can we ask them to keep suffering at our hands, knowing our tax dollars are paying for this lengthy and seemingly endless torture? But we do. We beg them to keep going, plead with them not to allow their story to end this way. We cajole, we bargain, we make promises, and somehow, we’ve managed to keep almost everyone alive. It seems miraculous under the circumstances that I haven’t lost anyone I love.
I can’t tell you what it’s like to live with this fear, this devastation, this utter helplessness.
What I can tell you, Minister Dutton, is that asylum seekers are not self-harming because of the advocates.
Asylum seekers are self-harming because of you.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/05/refugees-dont-self-harm-because-of-me-peter-dutton-they-self-harm-because-of-you?CMP=soc_567
Peter Dutton, what do you do between the hours of midnight and 5am? Do you sleep? If so, I really must ask – how can you?
Dozens of Australians sit up all night, every single night, comforting asylum seekers on Manus Island and Nauru. You don’t have to, therefore the task falls to the advocates.
Let me tell you what this entails, since your statement blaming advocates for suicide attempts – of actually encouraging self-harm – suggests you are clearly unaware.
It is mind-blowingly hot on Manus and Nauru during the day, so our friends there try to sleep. We, safely onshore, sit tensely in the evenings, watching for the little green light that signals people have come online. When someone doesn’t show up, there is a flurry of frantic calls between advocates; when did you last hear from them? What did they say? Are they in danger of self-harm? Who do you know in the same compound? The result of these calls can be anything from relief upon locating our friend, safe and sound, or that which is becoming more common – they’ve harmed themselves and are in International Health and Medical Services, or have been beaten by guards and thrown into solitary confinement.
We cannot sleep, Mr Dutton. We can close our eyes, but the horrors we are witnessing don’t go away. And on the rare occasions we actually do get to sleep, we know there are no guarantees that our loved ones will be unharmed when we wake.
I will never forget the last night I actually slept for eight hours – it was in September last year, and I woke to discover one of my dearest friends on Manus had stabbed himself in the neck.
He apologised over and over again, he knew he’d broken his promise not to hurt himself, but after three years of incarceration, beatings from the guards and locals, as well as untreated medical conditions, the psychological damage means we cannot expect them to always have control over their behaviours.
He has since tried to drown himself, and I live in constant fear of losing him.
Nauru is a different kind of torment for us. As a mother, I get to watch my daughter play freely, build lego houses, drink babycinos, run excitedly through the shops, all the while knowing my friends on Nauru have children who have never known that freedom.
As a woman, I beg my friends there to eat, to drink water, all the while knowing that the reason they have no appetite is due to the constant sexual harassment from the guards. I cannot imagine living with that kind of constant trauma, let alone retaining the will to live through it all, day after day.
Then there’s the vomiting, Minister. A number of advocates, including me, have become physically ill from what we are witnessing. It is of great concern to me that you do not have a similar reaction, as it seems the only logical response to such horrors. Many of us have been hospitalised for rehydration, and one for a blood transfusion due to internal bleeding. The human mind is not wired to cope with what we are seeing unfold.
How can you stand back, with all of the power you have, and allow these things to occur?
And then, when somebody on Manus or Nauru finally breaks, under the sheer weight of the trauma being inflicted upon them on a daily basis, and commits an act of self-harm, you blame the people who spend each day and night trying to prevent this from happening.
Minister Dutton, if you believe people are being coached to self-harm, or are self-harming in order to come to Australia, then you don’t understand the fundamentals of self-harm. Perhaps you should talk to one of the two psychiatric nurses who have given up their paid work here to support people on Nauru and Manus full-time.
Perhaps you should discuss it with any of the child abuse or domestic violence survivors – there are a great many of us who are supporting survivors of the same who are in offshore detention.
All day, and all night, day after day, our greatest fear is of losing the people we call our brothers, our sisters, our sons, our daughters. We know and love these people as family members, and they have shared in our lives, as we have in theirs, during this terrifying journey we’ve found ourselves on.
I’m no expert on anxiety or depression, so I’m not going to talk about the conditions that have become so prevalent in those who have sought refuge in this country, only to be sent to a place that closely resembles the popular idea of hell. Plenty of experts have already clearly stated the harm that is caused on Manus and Nauru: these statements were dismissed by your department. So it’s up to the advocates to attempt to lift the burden of crippling, untreated mental illnesses from the shoulders of our friends.
We can only do so much over the phone, however. What do you say to a sobbing man at 3am who simply cannot take any more beatings? What do you say to a frantic mother with a sick baby whose condition isn’t being treated adequately? How can we ask them to keep suffering at our hands, knowing our tax dollars are paying for this lengthy and seemingly endless torture? But we do. We beg them to keep going, plead with them not to allow their story to end this way. We cajole, we bargain, we make promises, and somehow, we’ve managed to keep almost everyone alive. It seems miraculous under the circumstances that I haven’t lost anyone I love.
I can’t tell you what it’s like to live with this fear, this devastation, this utter helplessness.
What I can tell you, Minister Dutton, is that asylum seekers are not self-harming because of the advocates.
Asylum seekers are self-harming because of you.
Those illiterate refugees wouldn't even understand the punchline when Dutton tells them his joke about rising ocean levels in the Pacific Islands.
