Australian Economics

[casper68]

Yes, I must apologise.

I ran into my contact for this and was told that I hadn't listened properly.
The unskilled workers get $32 an hour.
I should have heard that it is the union reps that get the new cars.
I was also told not to tell anyone about it.

Again, I apologise on both counts.

This would amount to the car companies of bribing the union reps . Question for Phantom when does an unskilled worker as you have called someone like
myself in this thread become a skilled worker?

 

[AngryAnt]

Question for Phantom when does an unskilled worker as you have called someone like
myself in this thread become a skilled worker?

Great question. Phantom assumes that as it is blue collar work, it must be unskilled work. Wrong.

I'd challenge Phantom's assumption that there is such a thing as an "unskilled worker" in the automobile manufacturing industry. A 2013 report from the Industry Skills Council discusses the skills profile of the auto manufacturing workforce and highlights the issues are that of skills shortage, and skilled workers leaving the industry for better pay/conditions in mining and other industries. Employers also recognise the value that experienced, skilled workers carry in their heads - this tacit knowledge is very hard to replace. In terms of skills/costs, the problem is not that unskilled labour costs to much - there is very little to no unskilled labour used in any case.


From the report:

"skill shortages
A further issue highlighted by
industry in the 2013 Automotive
Environmental Scan Survey is in
relation to shortages of skilled
labour. Fifty per cent of automotive
businesses reported that they were
affected by shortages of skilled
labour. This is consistent with
forecasts presented by ASA in last
year’s Environmental Scan."

http://www.isc.org.au/pdf/Auto%20Skills%20Australia%202013.pdf

 

[AngryAnt]

This would amount to the car companies of bribing the union reps.

Exactly, and if this is correct the responsible executives and managers, along with the union reps involved, should be charged with criminal offences and brought to trial.

Of course, it's total hearsay and a load of BS. The only reference I can find to any allegation that Ford bribed union officials with cars at Broadmeadows was in 1972 prior to the strikes and riots that brought about a change to the abject exploitation of the mostly migrant worker population that Ford employed at the time.

As with most of Phantom's union bashing there is little substance to it.

 

[casper68]

Great question. Phantom assumes that as it is blue collar work, it must be unskilled work. Wrong.

I'd challenge Phantom's assumption that there is such a thing as an "unskilled worker" in the automobile manufacturing industry. A 2013 report from the Industry Skills Council discusses the skills profile of the auto manufacturing workforce and highlights the issues are that of skills shortage, and skilled workers leaving the industry for better pay/conditions in mining and other industries. Employers also recognise the value that experienced, skilled workers carry in their heads - this tacit knowledge is very hard to replace. In terms of skills/costs, the problem is not that unskilled labour costs to much - there is very little to no unskilled labour used in any case.


From the report:

"skill shortages
A further issue highlighted by
industry in the 2013 Automotive
Environmental Scan Survey is in
relation to shortages of skilled
labour. Fifty per cent of automotive
businesses reported that they were
affected by shortages of skilled
labour. This is consistent with
forecasts presented by ASA in last
year’s Environmental Scan."

http://www.isc.org.au/pdf/Auto%20Skills%20Australia%202013.pdf

 

[Brodders17]

question: should a gov give a private company money if giving that money will save jobs which will then actually save the gov money by saving on welfare?
say for example giving SPC $25m would ensure 2000 people keep their jobs for at least a few years. this would amount to 12,500 per job, which would equal about 1 year unemployment benefit each.

i was against the idea of giving private companies money (unless they are providing some sort of social benefit), but have re-considered after hearing someone on the radio talk about the social obligations of a government when ford left, and the social loss suffered when a major employer shuts down.

 

[bullus_hit]

question: should a gov give a private company money if giving that money will save jobs which will then actually save the gov money by saving on welfare?
say for example giving SPC $25m would ensure 2000 people keep their jobs for at least a few years. this would amount to 12,500 per job, which would equal about 1 year unemployment benefit each.

i was against the idea of giving private companies money (unless they are providing some sort of social benefit), but have re-considered after hearing someone on the radio talk about the social obligations of a government when ford left, and the social loss suffered when a major employer shuts down.

It's a valid argument, we're talking about sacrificing regions, which is all good and well provided there's something to move to.

 

[KnightersRevenge]

question: should a gov give a private company money if giving that money will save jobs which will then actually save the gov money by saving on welfare?
say for example giving SPC $25m would ensure 2000 people keep their jobs for at least a few years. this would amount to 12,500 per job, which would equal about 1 year unemployment benefit each.

i was against the idea of giving private companies money (unless they are providing some sort of social benefit), but have re-considered after hearing someone on the radio talk about the social obligations of a government when ford left, and the social loss suffered when a major employer shuts down.

Very interesting listening to the local member a Vic LNP giving both barrels to the PM for attempting to paint this as an industrial relations issue when none of parties involved have suggested this. She lay it at the feet of Coles and Woolies for dumping poor quality imported produce in the market unchecked by government. Great to hear an LNP member not singing from the hymn sheet.

 

[tigergollywog]

either we're having a reasonable debate or we aren't. If I want to hear unsubstantiated assertions I can catch a cab or read Andrew Bolt. Apology is accepted, but you're still exposing your bias, that $32 would either be unskilled with some allowances, or semi-skilled. Also, I'll bet money the union reps getting new cars is not cut and dried. It would be discount cars, or wrong. And union rep might be being wrongly used as a synonym for leading hand/ production manager etc. This has shred-of-truth heresay written all over it Phantom I'm afraid. I overestimated you

Yep, the foreman gets a camira and the union bloke gets a gift voucher at christmas to "Happy Endings Massage Parlour" in Bacchus Marsh.

$32 and hour aint that much these days. Its only 3 times what a skilled child care worker gets. I hate the term unskilled. Wouldnt you have to be a jelly ameoba to be unskilled? Even then, your gonna have good digestive skills.

back on economics. I agree with joe hockey and the general narrative (hate that word too, but it works here) that Australians need to jettison the entitlement vibe or well end up like Greece. Trouble is, blokes like Bolt try sell it that its the poor and disabled who feel entitled when in reality its manufacturers, farmers and the middle class. Add some union corruption, a distinct lack of quality journalism, Aldi selling Peruvian canned peaches for 2 bob, a whole stack of fat people and a largely amoral, underwhelming parliament, and youve got the recipe for a big deflation in an economy and the whole vibe of the thing IMO

I reckon we've peaked, economically, as a nation, and its all downhill from here for another cycle.

 

[AngryAnt]

back on economics. I agree with joe hockey and the general narrative (hate that word too, but it works here) that Australians need to jettison the entitlement vibe or well end up like Greece. Trouble is, blokes like Bolt try sell it that its the poor and disabled who feel entitled when in reality its manufacturers, farmers and the middle class. Add some union corruption, a distinct lack of quality journalism, Aldi selling Peruvian canned peaches for 2 bob, a whole stack of fat people and a largely amoral, underwhelming parliament, and youve got the recipe for a big deflation in an economy and the whole vibe of the thing IMO

:hihi

 

[KnightersRevenge]

Yep, the foreman gets a camira and the union bloke gets a gift voucher at christmas to "Happy Endings Massage Parlour" in Bacchus Marsh.

$32 and hour aint that much these days. Its only 3 times what a skilled child care worker gets. I hate the term unskilled. Wouldnt you have to be a jelly ameoba to be unskilled? Even then, your gonna have good digestive skills.

back on economics. I agree with joe hockey and the general narrative (hate that word too, but it works here) that Australians need to jettison the entitlement vibe or well end up like Greece. Trouble is, blokes like Bolt try sell it that its the poor and disabled who feel entitled when in reality its manufacturers, farmers and the middle class. Add some union corruption, a distinct lack of quality journalism, Aldi selling Peruvian canned peaches for 2 bob, a whole stack of fat people and a largely amoral, underwhelming parliament, and youve got the recipe for a big deflation in an economy and the whole vibe of the thing IMO

I reckon we've peaked, economically, as a nation, and its all downhill from here for another cycle.

Peaked you say? You could be on to something. I had a theory around GFC time that Australian manufacturing was going to be in trouble because everyone else got a free pass to sack half it's workforce, write off some debts they'd been carrying (stocks were tanking anyway so why not clear out the crap and blame the GFC?) and dump their wage bill. The old GFC was a god-send. Aussie companies didn't have the same excuse. That said I was working as a service technician and was barely getting $20 an hour and I'd call it "semi-skilled?". Working as a service technician in a different sector in Ireland now and conditions are roughly similar but wages are lower, interestingly the home office is in the UK and the blokes doing the same job as me get much less again and miss out on some of the expenses perks I get. But $32hr and new car? Where do I sign?

 

[tigergollywog]

Peaked you say? You could be on to something. I had a theory around GFC time that Australian manufacturing was going to be in trouble because everyone else got a free pass to sack half it's workforce, write off some debts they'd been carrying (stocks were tanking anyway so why not clear out the crap and blame the GFC?) and dump their wage bill. The old GFC was a god-send. Aussie companies didn't have the same excuse. That said I was working as a service technician and was barely getting $20 an hour and I'd call it "semi-skilled?". Working as a service technician in a different sector in Ireland now and conditions are roughly similar but wages are lower, interestingly the home office is in the UK and the blokes doing the same job as me get much less again and miss out on some of the expenses perks I get. But $32hr and new car? Where do I sign?

Funny you should bring ireland into it. I live near byron bay and pick up international backpackers on a weekly basis. They reckon 1. the cost of living in Australia is massive and 2. labour cost (i.e. what they can earn picking fruit) is massive. Thats inflation isnt it? does your $20 go as far on the Emerald isle as $32 down here? Whats a pint of Guiness cost? I find the price of a draught beer a very accurate yard stick of global economics.

Yeah most australians (except those with big foreign share folios) where wondering why everyone was talking about the Geelong Football Club all the time. We dodged it, largely by digging up heaps of dirty black *smile* and selling it to China and by giving everyone a Harvey Norman voucher for a massaging lazy boy with a happy ending nozzle. We are starting to feel the real pinch just now IMO.

 

[Brodders17]

Funny you should bring ireland into it. I live near byron bay and pick up international backpackers on a weekly basis.

 

[KnightersRevenge]

Funny you should bring ireland into it. I live near byron bay and pick up international backpackers on a weekly basis. They reckon 1. the cost of living in Australia is massive and 2. labour cost (i.e. what they can earn picking fruit) is massive. Thats inflation isnt it? does your $20 go as far on the Emerald isle as $32 down here? Whats a pint of Guiness cost? I find the price of a draught beer a very accurate yard stick of global economics.

More of 'em over there than over here ATM. It's a nifty economic card trick they've perfected. When the *smile* hits the fan, export your workforce. Pint of Guinness runs 3.50 -4.80 EUR that's about $5.30 - $7.30 in aussie ringits. Not bad for Spanish muck, *smile* Diageo owns everything that isn't tied down.

Yeah most australians (except those with big foreign share folios) where wondering why everyone was talking about the Geelong Football Club all the time. We dodged it, largely by digging up heaps of dirty black sh!t and selling it to China and by giving everyone a Harvey Norman voucher for a massaging lazy boy with a happy ending nozzle. We are starting to feel the real pinch just now IMO.

Yup we staved off the worst but at the cost of competitiveness with companies that got lean in countries where jobs got scarce and workers got scared. Swings and roundabouts. And the blokes in the shiny suits who crippled the joint are standing in their Ivory towers and pissing into gilt Rhino horn pisspots.

 

[casper68]

I asked an old school mate who still works on the production line at Fords and he said the hourly rate there is $27 an hour.He has worked at Fords for 25 years and has never got a free car.

 

[tigersnake]

I asked an old school mate who still works on the production line at Fords and he said the hourly rate there is $27 an hour.He has worked at Fords for 25 years and has never got a free car.

he would have picked up a few skills too in 25 years

 

[tigersnake]

They reckon 1. the cost of living in Australia is massive and 2. labour cost (i.e. what they can earn picking fruit) is massive.

Friends of mine just got back from Scandanavia and were ranting and raving about how expensive it was, they gave some examples 'um, thats the same as here' I said. 'oh yeah', they said.

 

[tigergollywog]

hitching is the only public transport around these parts.

while there is an oversupply of very nicely put together young international backpackers in the region Brodders, and beside the fact that im a deleriously happily married father of 3, even on a good day, I cant imagine a 20 something swede siren is going to see much upside in a hairy 42yo with an unruly afro . having said that, I did have a touch of X factor in my hayday (is it hey day or hay day? and whats it mean?)

More of 'em over there than over here ATM. It's a nifty economic card trick they've perfected. When the sh!te hits the fan, export your workforce. Pint of Guinness runs 3.50 -4.80 EUR that's about $5.30 - $7.30 in aussie ringits. Not bad for Spanish muck, *smile*ing Diageo owns everything that isn't tied down.

Yup we staved off the worst but at the cost of competitiveness with companies that got lean in countries where jobs got scarce and workers got scared. Swings and roundabouts. And the blokes in the shiny suits who crippled the joint are standing in their Ivory towers and p!ssing into gilt Rhino horn p!sspots.

Kiwis are good at the 'ol two card trick also :hihi

If you can get a pint of guiness for $5, that supports my inflation theory. Your earning 4 pints an hour. here I get around $35 for semi-skilled, for which I wouldnt get much change for a round of guiness if I had 3 mates. same same.

and yeah, the spivs will almost always come out on top, fiscally speaking.

I asked an old school mate who still works on the production line at Fords and he said the hourly rate there is $27 an hour.He has worked at Fords for 25 years and has never got a free car.

tell him to get Phantom to do some EB for him.

 

[tigergollywog]

Friends of mine just got back from Scandanavia and were ranting and raving about how expensive it was, they gave some examples 'um, thats the same as here' I said. 'oh yeah', they said.

Havnt seen Norsca shampoo for ages and ages. Used to feel scandanavian on Sundy night after I washed my hair in that stuff.

 

[pahoffm]

Havnt seen Norsca shampoo for ages and ages. Used to feel scandanavian on Sundy night after I washed my hair in that stuff.

Norsca was a brand owned by multi-national Unilever, although, at that time, 70s & 80s, their production was in Australia.
Australia still does well in the manufacturing of aerosol products because transport laws make it extremely hard to import aerosols.

Ensign Laboratories, in Mulgrave, do a fantastic job manufacturing these aerosol & other products.

 

[Giardiasis]

http://www.youtube.com/user/eEconomics/videos

Some lolz.