Atheism | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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Atheism

Panthera tigris FC said:
And how did he store every species of flora and fauna that were not aquatic?

I just love that a person can doubt the ability of an omnipotent God to be able to create conditions for this to work but they are happy to believe that, without the help of said omnipotent God, a fish was able to grow air-breathing lungs and legs quickly enough to be able to survive and mate on land. Every fish I've ever caught dies within minutes of being taken out of the water and I believe that this has been the case for thousands of years.
 
evo said:
for the life of me i can't understand this "lack of trasitional form" argument,Djevv.

Every lifeform is 'transitional' --man doesn't have a perfect eye,or ear,he has weird things like appendix etc. And all animals are like that--evolution is an ongoing process.

Scientists can see it occuring in petrie dishes for pete's sake.How can it even be in doubt is beyond me.

Evo, there are massive gaps in the fossil record and I would be astounded if you did not acknowledge that. For Us, Giraffes and fish to be created from the same initial bacteria, we should have hundreds of thousands of examples of creatures that have been found who were a creature in the midst of an evolutionary change from one species to another. Please note, I am not talking about that specific creature individually but that he is a step in this process. Of this there should be thousands upon thousands of irrefutable examples, if the evolutionary theory is correct.

Also, science clearly states that we evolved from apes, and we are here, and we still have apes, but nothing inbetween? Why do both still exist independently and not the in-between transitional forms? (No Collingwood supporter jokes please! ;D)
 
Disco08 said:
And sailed by Noah and his family while they attended to all the animals in a massive storm?
One theory is that all of the animals in the ark were in their infancy, which makes sense for World repopulation, hence less space and food is required. Another theory is that God put all of the animals into a state of hibernation. Completely possible with an omnipotent God and it makes sense anyway as in nature many animals go into hibernation during times of extremely harsh weather.

Disco08 said:
Yet no mention of these remarkable feats of engineering millenniums ahead of their time in the actual story?

God gave Noah the plans for the ark and He is not bound by the technology of the time. It is also believed that the ark took Noah and his family over 100 years to build.


Disco08 said:
What would all the carnivores have eaten? I guess you could theorise that the surviving ate the extinct but a tiger eating a tyrannosaurus doesn't seem quite right, does it?
See the above quote re infant creatures and hibernation. It gives a viable explanation for this situation.
 
jayfox said:
Evo, there are massive gaps in the fossil record and I would be astounded if you did not acknowledge that. For Us, Giraffes and fish to be created from the same initial bacteria, we should have hundreds of thousands of examples of creatures that have been found who were a creature in the midst of an evolutionary change from one species to another. Please note, I am not talking about that specific creature individually but that he is a step in this process. Of this there should be thousands upon thousands of irrefutable examples, if the evolutionary theory is correct.

Also, science clearly states that we evolved from apes, and we are here, and we still have apes, but nothing inbetween? Why do both still exist independently and not the in-between transitional forms? (No Collingwood supporter jokes please! ;D)

Massive gaps in the fossil record. The 'big creationist lie' as it is sometimes termed. Have a look at the evidence Jay (and Djevv) you will see that your assertion is baseless. There are MANY examples of transitionary forms in the fossil record. Try reading some palaeontology literature...it is available for you to check out and will provide the justification for their conclusions as opposed to the blind assertions you come across on creationist websites ("take my word for it....please").

Your second paragraph demonstrates an astounding ignorance of how evolution works. Yet you sit on your computer and dismiss it so easily. We evolved from apes? No. We share a common ancestor with apes. Without a doubt. Species don't change into other species. Populations become reproductively separated via any one of numerous mechanisms and they 'drift' apart genetically over time until they represent distinct species. Both populations can still exist and this can occur numerous times. Transitionary forms of humans...there are plenty of extinct human relatives in the fossil record.

Humans and chimpanzees shared a common ancestor approximately 5 million years ago. The differences we see today represent 5 million years of evolution of both species.
 
jayfox said:
I just love that a person can doubt the ability of an omnipotent God to be able to create conditions for this to work but they are happy to believe that, without the help of said omnipotent God, a fish was able to grow air-breathing lungs and legs quickly enough to be able to survive and mate on land. Every fish I've ever caught dies within minutes of being taken out of the water and I believe that this has been the case for thousands of years.
I am happy to believe it because I can see the mechanisms that drive it. The tangible evidence is unequivocal on these matters. Your fish example bears no resemblance to the actual mechanisms that drove the evolution of non-aquatic lifeforms. The literature is freely available for you to educate yourself on this matter. You choose to ignore it.

Your 'god excuse' for natural phenomena has no basis in reality outside of your own perception.
 
jayfox said:
One theory is that all of the animals in the ark were in their infancy, which makes sense for World repopulation, hence less space and food is required. Another theory is that God put all of the animals into a state of hibernation. Completely possible with an omnipotent God and it makes sense anyway as in nature many animals go into hibernation during times of extremely harsh weather.

God gave Noah the plans for the ark and He is not bound by the technology of the time. It is also believed that the ark took Noah and his family over 100 years to build.

See the above quote re infant creatures and hibernation. It gives a viable explanation for this situation.

Obviously you aren't referring to the scientific term 'theory' here. Perhaps you should use the word 'story' or 'fable' or 'myth'. It isn't a scientific theory because you can't test it. Other predictions made by the Genesis flood have been tested and found wanting. I know which one I choose to believe.
 
Djevv said:
I cant see any reason for the earth to be that age apart from the necessity of making time for evolutionary processes to work.

For someone trained in geological sciences to make a statement like that!?!? The only evidence for the age of the earth is that it is required to explain evolutionary processes!?! Please Djevv...tell me you're joking here. The earth is believed to be about a billion years older than the first lifeforms....why did they add that extra billion years? Just to be safe?
 
Djevv said:
6. The fact that nearly all fossils are found in ‘graveyards’ rather than life positions.

How would you expect them to be found? Do you think that live animals just stood there and were fossilised...gorgon-style?
 
Djevv said:
4. As for the Haldane quip. No-one believes in special creation any longer – limited evolution is well within a creationist world view.

Only because the accumulation of scientific evidence made it so. Trust me that many creationists still reject all evolution....Jay what are your thoughts?
 
Djevv said:
8. The fact that very large land based creatures (dinosaurs & mammals) are found as fossils in sea (ie under water) sediments. How on earth did this occur?

You do realise that the continents have moved over the millennia and that sea levels have fluctuated over a large range as well? What may appear to be sea right now may not always have been so.
 
Djevv said:
13. Fossils have been discovered which have some organic remains. Seems hard to imagine this after 65+myrs

I am honestly dying to see the evidence of this. Please point out to me the paper that describes the discovery of 65myo dinosaur organic matter. The most that I am aware of is small amounts of degraded collagen proteins from bone (that has just recently been used to support the origin of birds from a branch of dinosaurs).
 
I am still waiting for a creationist explanation for the presence of conserved viral sequences in primate DNA sequences if they don't share a common ancestor. Why did your God put parasitic DNA that is now completely non functional (with some exceptions) in the same positions in the genomes of related species that exactly follow phylogenetic relaionships (ie. there are some insertions shared by all primates, the oldest ones, then there are some that are shared by chimps and humans, less old, and some that only occur in humans or chimps, the newest ones). We know what these sequences are, how they got there and what their former function was...why do we share them if we don't share a common ancestor?

For more information read up on endogenous retroviruses (ERVs).
 
Panthera tigris FC said:
Massive gaps in the fossil record. The 'big creationist lie' as it is sometimes termed. Have a look at the evidence Jay (and Djevv) you will see that your assertion is baseless. There are MANY examples of transitionary forms in the fossil record. Try reading some palaeontology literature...it is available for you to check out and will provide the justification for their conclusions as opposed to the blind assertions you come across on creationist websites ("take my word for it....please").

"I fully agree with your comments on the lack of direct illustration of evolutionary transitions in my book. If I knew of any, fossil or living, I would certainly have included them. You suggest that an artist should be used to visualise such transformations, but where would he get the information from? I could not, honestly, provide it, and if I were to leave it to artistic license, would that not mislead the reader?"
-Dr. Colin Patterson, senior paleontologist at the British Museum of Natural History, in letter to Luther Sunderland, April 10, 1979. Cited in: Sunderland, Luther D., Darwin's Enigma: Fossils and Other Problems (El Cajon, CA: Master Books, 1988), p. 89.

"The only illustration Darwin published in On the Origin of Species was a diagram depicting his view of evolution: species descendant from a common ancestor; gradual change of organisms over time; episodes of diversification and extinction of species. Given the simplicity of Darwin's theory of evolution, it was reasonable for paleontologists to believe that they should be able to demonstrate with the hard evidence provided by fossils both the thread of life and the gradual transformation of one species into another. Although paleontologists have, and continue to claim to have, discovered sequences of fossils that do indeed present a picture of gradual change over time, the truth of the matter is that we are still in the dark about the origin of most major groups of organisms. They appear in the fossil record as Athena did from the head of Zeus-full-blown and raring to go, in contradiction to Darwin's depiction of evolution as resulting from the gradual accumulation of countless infinitesimally minute variations, which, in turn, demands that the fossil record preserve an unbroken chain of transitional forms."

Jeffrey H. Schwartz - Professor of Anthropology, University of Pittsburgh, USA, "Sudden Origins: Fossils, Genes, and the Emergence of Species," John Wiley & Sons: New York NY, 1999, p. 3.

"...Yet Gould and the American Museum people are hard to contradict when they say there are no transitional fossils... You say I should at least 'show a photo of the fossil from which each type of organism was derived.' I will lay it on the line - there is not one such fossil for which one could make a watertight argument."
-Dr. Colin Patterson, ibid.

"It is easy enough to make up stories of how one form gave rise to another, and to find reasons why the stages should be favoured by natural selection. But such stories are not part of science, for there is no way of putting them to the test."
-Dr. Colin Patterson, ibid.


"No wonder paleontologists shied away from evolution for so long. It seems never to happen. Assiduous collecting up cliff faces yields zigzags, minor oscillations, and the very occasional slight accumulation of change over millions of years, at a rate too slow to really account for all the prodigious change that has occurred in evolutionary history. When we do see the introduction of evolutionary novelty, it usually shows up with a bang, and often with no firm evidence that the organisms did not evolve elsewhere! Evolution cannot forever be going on someplace else. Yet that's how the fossil record has struck many a forlorn paleontologist looking to learn something about evolution."

Niles Eldredge - Chairman and Curator of Invertebrates, American Museum of Natural History. "Reinventing Darwin: The Great Evolutionary Debate," (1995), phoenix: London, 1996, p. 95.

"Paleontologists had long been aware of a seeming contradiction between Darwin's postulate of gradualism, confirmed by the work of population genetics, and the actual findings of paleontology. Following phyletic lines through time seemed to reveal only minimal gradual changes but no clear evidence for any change of a species into a different genus or for the gradual origin of an evolutionary novelty. Anything truly novel always seemed to appear quite abruptly in the fossil record."

Ernst Mayr - Emeritus Professor of Zoology, Harvard University, "Toward a New Philosophy of Biology: Observations of an Evolutionist," Harvard University Press: Cambridge MA, 1988, pp. 529-530.

I don't particularly appreciate being called a liar. I have done some paleontology, and the above quotes represent what we were taught. You read some dogmatic explanations on Talk origins and think you are an expert. Yes some people have made cases (unsucessfully IMO) for transitional forms - but the general rule is NO TRANSITIONS.
 
Panthera tigris FC said:
How would you expect them to be found? Do you think that live animals just stood there and were fossilised...gorgon-style?

Life position means they fossilised where they grew. A graveyard means they have been transported and (presumably) killed by whatever event fossilised them.
 
Panthera tigris FC said:
You do realise that the continents have moved over the millennia and that sea levels have fluctuated over a large range as well? What may appear to be sea right now may not always have been so.

And, your point is? The sea gradually encroached the land over millions of years killed and buried large land based creatures en masse. I'd like to see that!!
 
Djevv said:
I don't particularly appreciate being called a liar. I have done some paleontology, and the above quotes represent what we were taught. You read some dogmatic explanations on Talk origins and think you are an expert. Yes some people have made cases (unsucessfully IMO) for transitional forms - but the general rule is NO TRANSITIONS.

I am calling the claim that you constantly hear from creationists a lie, in that it is clearly contradictory to the available evidence at this time.

If you were taught any science then you know the importance of staying up to date with the latest findings... it is not dogma it is subject to change and update. Just because you were taught something years ago does not mean that science has not made progress since that time.

My explanations don't usually come from talk.origins, but from my own reading on these matters. I sometimes will point you to that archive as it has some excellent reviews and summaries of some of the research in these areas. Why not refute the points that are made there, rather then referring to the forum itself as dogmatic....your argument will carry more weight that way.

Djevv, when you look at the predictions made by evolutionary theory you can clearly see that the fossil record wouldn't be expected to be complete...that is the reality of the situation. However, any findings shouldn't be contradictory to the theory if it is valid. Thus far, all fossils fit perfectly, both in age and form, with predictions made by evolutionary theory. 'Rabbits in the pre-Cambrian' is evidence against evolution, the lack of a transitionary fossil here or there is not.

BTW it is not my 'dogmatic explanation' that claims that transitionary fossils exist, but the consensus of the field of paleontology...scientists with far more expertise in that area than my own. I would point out flaws in their logic, rather than just dismissing them with an argument from incredulity.
 
Djevv said:
And, your point is? The sea gradually encroached the land over millions of years killed and buried large land based creatures en masse. I'd like to see that!!

No, areas that are currently under water were once land and have subsequently been inundated.
 
Djevv said:
Life position means they fossilised where they grew. A graveyard means they have been transported and (presumably) killed by whatever event fossilised them.

Fossils have been found in 'life position' as well as 'graveyard'...what is your point?
 
Djevv said:
"I fully agree with your comments on the lack of direct illustration of evolutionary transitions in my book. If I knew of any, fossil or living, I would certainly have included them. You suggest that an artist should be used to visualise such transformations, but where would he get the information from? I could not, honestly, provide it, and if I were to leave it to artistic license, would that not mislead the reader?"

-Dr. Colin Patterson, senior paleontologist at the British Museum of Natural History, in letter to Luther Sunderland, April 10, 1979. Cited in: Sunderland, Luther D., Darwin's Enigma: Fossils and Other Problems (El Cajon, CA: Master Books, 1988), p. 89.

"The only illustration Darwin published in On the Origin of Species was a diagram depicting his view of evolution: species descendant from a common ancestor; gradual change of organisms over time; episodes of diversification and extinction of species. Given the simplicity of Darwin's theory of evolution, it was reasonable for paleontologists to believe that they should be able to demonstrate with the hard evidence provided by fossils both the thread of life and the gradual transformation of one species into another. Although paleontologists have, and continue to claim to have, discovered sequences of fossils that do indeed present a picture of gradual change over time, the truth of the matter is that we are still in the dark about the origin of most major groups of organisms. They appear in the fossil record as Athena did from the head of Zeus-full-blown and raring to go, in contradiction to Darwin's depiction of evolution as resulting from the gradual accumulation of countless infinitesimally minute variations, which, in turn, demands that the fossil record preserve an unbroken chain of transitional forms."

Jeffrey H. Schwartz - Professor of Anthropology, University of Pittsburgh, USA, "Sudden Origins: Fossils, Genes, and the Emergence of Species," John Wiley & Sons: New York NY, 1999, p. 3.

"...Yet Gould and the American Museum people are hard to contradict when they say there are no transitional fossils... You say I should at least 'show a photo of the fossil from which each type of organism was derived.' I will lay it on the line - there is not one such fossil for which one could make a watertight argument."
-Dr. Colin Patterson, ibid.

"It is easy enough to make up stories of how one form gave rise to another, and to find reasons why the stages should be favoured by natural selection. But such stories are not part of science, for there is no way of putting them to the test."
-Dr. Colin Patterson, ibid.


"No wonder paleontologists shied away from evolution for so long. It seems never to happen. Assiduous collecting up cliff faces yields zigzags, minor oscillations, and the very occasional slight accumulation of change over millions of years, at a rate too slow to really account for all the prodigious change that has occurred in evolutionary history. When we do see the introduction of evolutionary novelty, it usually shows up with a bang, and often with no firm evidence that the organisms did not evolve elsewhere! Evolution cannot forever be going on someplace else. Yet that's how the fossil record has struck many a forlorn paleontologist looking to learn something about evolution."

Niles Eldredge - Chairman and Curator of Invertebrates, American Museum of Natural History. "Reinventing Darwin: The Great Evolutionary Debate," (1995), phoenix: London, 1996, p. 95.

"Paleontologists had long been aware of a seeming contradiction between Darwin's postulate of gradualism, confirmed by the work of population genetics, and the actual findings of paleontology. Following phyletic lines through time seemed to reveal only minimal gradual changes but no clear evidence for any change of a species into a different genus or for the gradual origin of an evolutionary novelty. Anything truly novel always seemed to appear quite abruptly in the fossil record."

Ernst Mayr - Emeritus Professor of Zoology, Harvard University, "Toward a New Philosophy of Biology: Observations of an Evolutionist," Harvard University Press: Cambridge MA, 1988, pp. 529-530.

I don't particularly appreciate being called a liar. I have done some paleontology, and the above quotes represent what we were taught. You read some dogmatic explanations on Talk origins and think you are an expert. Yes some people have made cases (unsucessfully IMO) for transitional forms - but the general rule is NO TRANSITIONS.

Quote mining evolutionary biologists now. A cheap creationist trick. I wonder if you actually questioned these individuals whether they would agree with your opinion that macro-evolution, as creationists term it, does not occur. What you are quote mining here is discussions on the role of punctuated equilibrium in evolution. Niles Eldredge, whom you quote above, proposed punctuated equilibrium with the late Stephen Jay Gould. As you, no doubt, lifted these quotes from a creationist website without trying to understand the context they were written in, I will provide you with a quote from Gould on this matter:

Since we [Niles Eldredge & Gould] proposed punctuated equilibria to explain trends, it is infuriating to be quoted again and again by creationists—whether through design or stupidity, I do not know—as admitting that the fossil record includes no transitional forms. Transitional forms are generally lacking at the species level, but they are abundant between larger groups.
Stephen Jay Gould
Evolution as Fact and Theory


It is clear that you are either attempting to mislead, or have been misled yourself.

If you want to actually have a debate on this matter, stick to the facts and refute the arguments that I make instead of resorting to lifted quote-mines from creationist websites.