America, will they ever learn? (Gun Control Debate)

[LeeToRainesToRoach]

Re: America, will they ever learn?

That illustrates what a dud Howard was. He had huge majority support for the move. I do give him a few kudos for taking on the Nats, but really, 11 years and his biggest achievement is melting a few 22s down?

I agree with Rosy, crooks get black market guns, made no difference over the long term. We took our guns in. Then got permits and bought the same ones again a couple of years later. End result? Hard to fathom.

After Hoddle St, Queen St, Strathmore, Port Arthur and maybe some I've forgotten in the space of a decade, how many random mass shootings since 1996?

Someone who already has a gun can "snap", maybe just because they're having "a bad day" like Julian Knight. If you don't have one, you have to go through all the checks and balances and waiting periods first.

 

[Giardiasis]

Re: America, will they ever learn?

Of course it will! Just because a sentence sounds glib doesn't make it right.

If it is hard to gun, MANY people will stop trying to get one. Of course criminals will get guns, blah, blah.

Gun-related deaths - per capita - in the US is ~5 times the Australian levels. There may be 20 factors, but I'm tipping that 'ease of access' is one of them. Perhaps Thomas Sowell could do a factor analysis on the correlation between the US constitution and gun-related deaths. I would be very impressed if the answer is 'no correlation'

So I guess drug control will stop people getting drugs.

Eh, considering the US has not had the second amendment for only 4 years of its existence, it would be a pretty pointless analysis. Perhaps a better analysis would be comparing violent crime in say New York state to the rest of the country, considering it does have the Sullivan act.

 

[Sintiger]

Re: America, will they ever learn?

Gun control won't stop people getting guns.

Of course criminals will still get guns but that is not the point. Less people will have access to guns, less people will have guns and there will be less shootings.

Not every crime is a planned act. Many happen in anger or are crimes of passion. In those circumstances if you don't have a gun guess what ? You can't shoot anyone.

 

[Giardiasis]

Re: America, will they ever learn?

Of course criminals will still get guns but that is not the point. Less people will have access to guns, less people will have guns and there will be less shootings.

Not every crime is a planned act. Many happen in anger or are crimes of passion. In those circumstances if you don't have a gun guess what ? You can't shoot anyone.

Well I guess this is where the difference lies. There is a difference between a the intention of legislation, and the outcomes of legislation.

 

[poppa x]

Re: America, will they ever learn?

Both Obama and Mitt Romney agree on gun control.
But it won't be mentioned in the Presidential Race because the NRA controls both houses by spending millions of dollars getting their preferred candidates installed.
The people - remember them? - get no say because it's never an election issue.

 

[Ian4]

Re: America, will they ever learn?

41% rise in firearm applications in denver on monday compared to the previous friday. more proof that the yanks are absolute nutters.

 

[AngryAnt]

Re: America, will they ever learn?

Both Obama and Mitt Romney agree on gun control.
But it won't be mentioned in the Presidential Race because the NRA controls both houses by spending millions of dollars getting their preferred candidates installed.
The people - remember them? - get no say because it's never an election issue.

Spot-on Poppa... this CNN article is good on the issue.

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/07/23/politics/obama-romney-guns/index.html

 

[Tigersub]

Re: America, will they ever learn?

I was just reading that article and the comments below that article. These people are absolutely crazy when it comes to their gun carrying. Here is one quote that basically says those in the audience in the cinema were soft for not carrying a gun and made the situation worse by not doing so....here is the quote below. Unbelievable and really points to the problems the US have got with alot of their gun carrying morons....whether they be criminal or so called "law abiding".


"What we have is a bunch of wimps who refuse to carry. It would have prevented this incident or made it less sever. It is a fact that honest carrying citizens are our best defense not carrying criminals".

 

[LeeToRainesToRoach]

Re: America, will they ever learn?

They really don't seem to be able to see the wood for the trees. While nothing changes, you can only conclude that Americans by and large are prepared to continue paying this sort of price for their right to have guns.

 

[Sintiger]

Re: America, will they ever learn?

Well I guess this is where the difference lies. There is a difference between a the intention of legislation, and the outcomes of legislation.

There have been stats thrown around on here but the one I saw was the comparison between gun homicides in the US p.a per 100,000 people against Australia.

In 2010 the US number is 2.98 , in Australia it is 0.1. The homicide rate p.a. per 100,000 people in the US is 4.6 and in Australia it is 1.2.

in 2009 the US had 9146 shooting homicides out of 14159 total homicides, 65% of all homicides were with guns
In 2009 Australia had 30 shooting homicides out of 262 total homicides , 12% of all homicides were with guns

If you don't think we have less shootings in Australia because we have less access to firearms then there is no point in even having a discussion.

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/united-states

 

[KnightersRevenge]

Re: America, will they ever learn?

So I guess drug control will stop people getting drugs.

Eh, considering the US has not had the second amendment for only 4 years of its existence, it would be a pretty pointless analysis. Perhaps a better analysis would be comparing violent crime in say New York state to the rest of the country, considering it does have the Sullivan act.

Statistics schmatistics Gia. It is easy to argue for comparisons and relative statistics on violent crimes. These are academic issues. But gun crime in the US is killing people and that is not academic. That is heart-rending. You can't get rid of the people, but you can get rid of the guns, or at least make them less prevalent and harder to get. Surely you can see that that is a start?

 

[Tigertool]

Re: America, will they ever learn?

41% rise in firearm applications in denver on monday compared to the previous friday. more proof that the yanks are absolute nutters.

I was just reading that article and the comments below that article. These people are absolutely crazy when it comes to their gun carrying. Here is one quote that basically says those in the audience in the cinema were soft for not carrying a gun and made the situation worse by not doing so....here is the quote below. Unbelievable and really points to the problems the US have got with alot of their gun carrying morons....whether they be criminal or so called "law abiding".


"What we have is a bunch of wimps who refuse to carry. It would have prevented this incident or made it less sever. It is a fact that honest carrying citizens are our best defense not carrying criminals".

I cannot, for the absolute life of me, begin to understand the American way of thinking.

 

[Giardiasis]

Re: America, will they ever learn?

There have been stats thrown around on here but the one I saw was the comparison between gun homicides in the US p.a per 100,000 people against Australia.

In 2010 the US number is 2.98 , in Australia it is 0.1. The homicide rate p.a. per 100,000 people in the US is 4.6 and in Australia it is 1.2.

in 2009 the US had 9146 shooting homicides out of 14159 total homicides, 65% of all homicides were with guns
In 2009 Australia had 30 shooting homicides out of 262 total homicides , 12% of all homicides were with guns

If you don't think we have less shootings in Australia because we have less access to firearms then there is no point in even having a discussion.

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/united-states

So you base your reasoning by looking at one example?

"Do countries with strong gun control laws have lower murder rates? Only if you cherry-pick the data.

Britain is a country with stronger gun control laws than the United States — and lower murder rates. But Mexico, Russia and Brazil are also countries with stronger gun control laws than the United States — and their murder rates are much higher than ours. Israel and Switzerland have even higher rates of gun ownership than the United States — and much lower murder rates than ours.

Even the British example does not stand up very well under scrutiny. The murder rate in New York City has been several times that in London for more than two centuries — and, for most of that time, neither place had strong gun control laws. New York had strong gun control laws years before London did, but New York still had several times the murder rate of London.

It was in the later decades of the 20th century that the British government clamped down with severe gun control laws, disarming virtually the entire law-abiding citizenry. Gun crimes, including murder, rose as the public was disarmed.

Meanwhile, murder rates in the United States declined during the same years when murder rates in Britain were rising, which were also years when Americans were buying millions more guns per year.

The real problem, both in discussions of mass shootings and in discussions of gun control, is that too many people are too committed to a vision to allow mere facts to interfere with their beliefs — and the sense of superiority that those beliefs give them."

http://www.omaha.com/article/20120725/NEWS0802/707259988/1677

 

[Sintiger]

Re: America, will they ever learn?

So you base your reasoning by looking at one example?

"Do countries with strong gun control laws have lower murder rates? Only if you cherry-pick the data.

Britain is a country with stronger gun control laws than the United States — and lower murder rates. But Mexico, Russia and Brazil are also countries with stronger gun control laws than the United States — and their murder rates are much higher than ours. Israel and Switzerland have even higher rates of gun ownership than the United States — and much lower murder rates than ours.

Even the British example does not stand up very well under scrutiny. The murder rate in New York City has been several times that in London for more than two centuries — and, for most of that time, neither place had strong gun control laws. New York had strong gun control laws years before London did, but New York still had several times the murder rate of London.

It was in the later decades of the 20th century that the British government clamped down with severe gun control laws, disarming virtually the entire law-abiding citizenry. Gun crimes, including murder, rose as the public was disarmed.

Meanwhile, murder rates in the United States declined during the same years when murder rates in Britain were rising, which were also years when Americans were buying millions more guns per year.

The real problem, both in discussions of mass shootings and in discussions of gun control, is that too many people are too committed to a vision to allow mere facts to interfere with their beliefs — and the sense of superiority that those beliefs give them."

http://www.omaha.com/article/20120725/NEWS0802/707259988/1677

Nice try but no prize. Not sure where you got your gun numbers from but I use civilian guns as the best comparison. According to my numbers the US has 88.8 civilian registered guns per 100 people , Israel has 5.98 . Switzerland has 45.7 but that is skewed because Switzerland has no standing army, so it includes the armed militia who are the equivalent of armed forces in other countries.

You honestly don't believe that gun control laws in Russia, Brazil and Mexico actually mean anything do you?

Anyway you reply to my cherry pick with your cherry pick. The fact is that people will believe what they want to believe mostly, your vision argument. There are many factors that lead to violent crime and homicides and to their reduction. Better policing, better education etc etc. To me having less access to guns to assist in that reduction is just obvious.

 

[AngryAnt]

Re: America, will they ever learn?

So you base your reasoning by looking at one example?

"Do countries with strong gun control laws have lower murder rates? Only if you cherry-pick the data.

Britain is a country with stronger gun control laws than the United States — and lower murder rates. But Mexico, Russia and Brazil are also countries with stronger gun control laws than the United States — and their murder rates are much higher than ours. Israel and Switzerland have even higher rates of gun ownership than the United States — and much lower murder rates than ours.

Even the British example does not stand up very well under scrutiny. The murder rate in New York City has been several times that in London for more than two centuries — and, for most of that time, neither place had strong gun control laws. New York had strong gun control laws years before London did, but New York still had several times the murder rate of London.

It was in the later decades of the 20th century that the British government clamped down with severe gun control laws, disarming virtually the entire law-abiding citizenry. Gun crimes, including murder, rose as the public was disarmed.

Meanwhile, murder rates in the United States declined during the same years when murder rates in Britain were rising, which were also years when Americans were buying millions more guns per year.

The real problem, both in discussions of mass shootings and in discussions of gun control, is that too many people are too committed to a vision to allow mere facts to interfere with their beliefs — and the sense of superiority that those beliefs give them."

http://www.omaha.com/article/20120725/NEWS0802/707259988/1677

Why not just call a spade a spade Gia. You are a libertarian. Libertarians believe there should be no regulation of anything much. This is particularly true for guns, as they believe that an armed populace will be able to overthrow a tyrannical government - or at least, prevent a tyrannically minded government from acting as such. So gun ownership is non-negotiable.

Therefore libertarians don't care (or at least accept) that there will be violent crime, suicides, murders, and the occasional massacre. All this is worth it because of a 18th century historico/fantastical view of the world.

All the "guns don't cause bad things" argumentation is pure sophistry.

 

[Harry]

Re: America, will they ever learn?

"What we have is a bunch of wimps who refuse to carry. It would have prevented this incident or made it less sever. It is a fact that honest carrying citizens are our best defense not carrying criminals".

can you carry a loaded gun in a public place?

 

[Sintiger]

Re: America, will they ever learn?

can you carry a loaded gun in a public place?

I don't know the law for sure but I was told when I was in Arizona years ago that it was legal to carry a weapon but that it could not be concealed.

Not sure if that is true or is still the case.

 

[Ian4]

Re: America, will they ever learn?

I cannot, for the absolute life of me, begin to understand the American way of thinking.

generally speaking, middle american society is very unsular. they don't know a hell of a lot that goes on beyond their own backyard, hence their very narrow minded/sheltered/old fashioned view of the world. did you know that only about 30% of amercans own a passport? and it used to be even worse than that... the number of amercans who own a passport has doubled since 2000. and it was only 3% in 1987.

 

[Giardiasis]

Re: America, will they ever learn?

Nice try but no prize. Not sure where you got your gun numbers from but I use civilian guns as the best comparison. According to my numbers the US has 88.8 civilian registered guns per 100 people , Israel has 5.98 . Switzerland has 45.7 but that is skewed because Switzerland has no standing army, so it includes the armed militia who are the equivalent of armed forces in other countries.

You honestly don't believe that gun control laws in Russia, Brazil and Mexico actually mean anything do you?

Anyway you reply to my cherry pick with your cherry pick. The fact is that people will believe what they want to believe mostly, your vision argument. There are many factors that lead to violent crime and homicides and to their reduction. Better policing, better education etc etc. To me having less access to guns to assist in that reduction is just obvious.

Why does civilian matter?

November 5, 2009: Gunman Malik Nadal Hasan, a Major in the U.S. Army, killed 12 soldiers and one civilian, and wounded at least 30 on the base at Ft. Hood. Initial reports indicate Hassan was upset at being deployed to Iraq.

You don't honestly think that civilians in the States will give up their guns do you, gun control laws or not?

The point of showing other examples was to demonstrate your cherry picking. I was invalidating your argument, not putting forth a hypothesis myself.

Your last paragraph demonstrates you do not value liberty. It is always the smart people that think they know better than others, and are prepared to subvert democracy to achieve their goals.

 

[Giardiasis]

Re: America, will they ever learn?

Why not just call a spade a spade Gia. You are a libertarian. Libertarians believe there should be no regulation of anything much. This is particularly true for guns, as they believe that an armed populace will be able to overthrow a tyrannical government - or at least, prevent a tyrannically minded government from acting as such. So gun ownership is non-negotiable.

Therefore libertarians don't care (or at least accept) that there will be violent crime, suicides, murders, and the occasional massacre. All this is worth it because of a 18th century historico/fantastical view of the world.

All the "guns don't cause bad things" argumentation is pure sophistry.

I don't think the Liberatian's would fancy my advocacy on expansive foreign policy, and the abolishment of appeasement. I am a big fan of Austrian economics, and of people making decisions for themselves.