Alex Rance

[Number8]

These guys could hardly get a game with us in their last seasons.

What did you expect in return?

You can't conflate their inability to get a game at Richmond with their worth. That's looking at it the wrong way.

Butler was a victim of the club having too many quality small goal kicking tackling machines. Stengle, too.

As I said yonks ago on (I think) the Butler thread, smart business values the player according to their worth for another club.

Giving away Butler and Lloyd, in particular, for junk picks is arrogant.

You risk giving up some of your competitive advantage if you can't extract decent trades for good players while you're in this golden window.

It won't last forever!

 

[Tigers of Old]

I hate innuendo & speculation about an absolute champion of the Richmond Football Club.
It's unhealthy & unnecessary. Bloody hell I thought we were past the toxic behavior of eating our own?
Be better.

 

[zippadeee]

You can't conflate their inability to get a game at Richmond with their worth. That's looking at it the wrong way.

Butler was a victim of the club having too many quality small goal kicking tackling machines. Stengle, too.

As I said yonks ago on (I think) the Butler thread, smart business values the player according to their worth for another club.

Giving away Butler and Lloyd, in particular, for junk picks is arrogant.

You risk giving up some of your competitive advantage if you can't extract decent trades for good players while you're in this golden window.

It won't last forever!

Spot on.
Not good enough for us, but best 22 for another club.
We need to change pick 70s into 30- 40's minimum.
Bulter and Lloyd will help this happen
Bulter is a senstational small forward

 

[DavidSSS]

Did we have a choice in the picks we got for players like Butler and Lloyd?

DS

 

[Number8]

Did we have a choice in the picks we got for players like Butler and Lloyd?

DS

I think you always have a choice @DavidSSS but I get what you're driving at.

Perhaps future picks were the answer to getting fair value for these blokes?

For what it's worth, I would have been looking for a late second/early third rounder for Butler, and a third rounder for Lloyd.

I have a feeling we didn't even use the selection we got for Lloyd?

Crazy.

 

[AngryAnt]

You can't conflate their inability to get a game at Richmond with their worth. That's looking at it the wrong way.

Butler was a victim of the club having too many quality small goal kicking tackling machines. Stengle, too.

As I said yonks ago on (I think) the Butler thread, smart business values the player according to their worth for another club.

Giving away Butler and Lloyd, in particular, for junk picks is arrogant.

You risk giving up some of your competitive advantage if you can't extract decent trades for good players while you're in this golden window.

It won't last forever!

Problem with that argument is that we had to clear numbers on the list and salary cap, so we didn't want mediocre trades coming back.

We were never going to get high draft picks for those players either, however much you might wish it.

Our trading has been superb the last few years.

 

[DavidSSS]

I reckon we should have got more, I suppose the BEllis situation is recent and fresh in my mind but I wasn't happy with the compensation and he is making a positive difference up at GC.

DS

 

[zippadeee]

Did we have a choice in the picks we got for players like Butler and Lloyd?

DS

Ww could've tried harder to improve the draft pick.
They showed last night how we played when we were at our best and guess who was front and centre of the package? Bulter.
I understand why we let Bulter, Lloyd and Ellis go, but we need to get better at dealing.
Wellingham was just a team filler when Collingwood was flying and he got them a pick in the teens.
Beams got Collingwood 2 first rounders and crisp.
Not sure what Dawes and lumbaba got Collingwood but i guarantee you they weren't picks in the 70's or 80's.
These deals seem ok today because we are a competitive team, but to stay competitive, picks in the 30's or 40's, will keep our list up there for years to come.
All im saying there is a better chance of finding quality at 30 or 40, then a suspect deletion in the 70's.
Danihiar hasn't played since dinosaurs walked the planet and Essendon were asking for 2 top 10 picks. Sydney came back with pick 15 & Papley.
If i was an Essendon supporter i would be pissed that we didn't do the deal.
Rumour Cj is being courted by GWS, if he goes there we should get a top 20 pick or player like Himmeberg, Hopper or Green in return.

 

[Number8]

Problem with that argument is that we had to clear numbers on the list and salary cap, so we didn't want mediocre trades coming back.

Yeah, sorry, I meant picks, not trades. Agree, trades coming back are not the goal.

I maintain both Lloyd and Butler have already proved they were worth better picks that what we received for them.

The way they've fitted into their new clubs makes the argument irrefutable.

Lloyd was Footscray's leading goalkicker last season.

Butler will play every game for St Kilda this season if he stays fit.

 

[tigerman]

I reckon we should have got more, I suppose the BEllis situation is recent and fresh in my mind but I wasn't happy with the compensation and he is making a positive difference up at GC.

DS

Brando chose to put contract talks on hold at the beginning of last season. When he was offered a contract at the Suns we chose not to match it. If we knew that Rance was going to retire that may have changed things.

 

[TigerFlag2017]

I think the club sees trading as a core part of its values, which is to ensure fringe players get opportunities to extend their career and set themselves up for life after football.

Shameful.

 

[year of the tiger]

Yeah i agree 17, our culture has worked for a reason - we value the person first.

The other option is the bummers model - and look how that works.

 

[yandb]

Ww could've tried harder to improve the draft pick.
They showed last night how we played when we were at our best and guess who was front and centre of the package? Bulter.
I understand why we let Bulter, Lloyd and Ellis go, but we need to get better at dealing.
Wellingham was just a team filler when Collingwood was flying and he got them a pick in the teens.
Beams got Collingwood 2 first rounders and crisp.
Not sure what Dawes and lumbaba got Collingwood but i guarantee you they weren't picks in the 70's or 80's.
These deals seem ok today because we are a competitive team, but to stay competitive, picks in the 30's or 40's, will keep our list up there for years to come.
All im saying there is a better chance of finding quality at 30 or 40, then a suspect deletion in the 70's.
Danihiar hasn't played since dinosaurs walked the planet and Essendon were asking for 2 top 10 picks. Sydney came back with pick 15 & Papley.
If i was an Essendon supporter i would be pissed that we didn't do the deal.
Rumour Cj is being courted by GWS, if he goes there we should get a top 20 pick or player like Himmeberg, Hopper or Green in return.

If we took pick 20 for CCJ I would fair dinkum spew as that is what we drafted him for.

His is just begining to settle into his big frame so no trade, he is Jacks obvious replacement.

 

[AngryAnt]

Yeah, sorry, I meant picks, not trades. Agree, trades coming back are not the goal.

I maintain both Lloyd and Butler have already proved they were worth better picks that what we received for them.

The way they've fitted into their new clubs makes the argument irrefutable.

Lloyd was Footscray's leading goalkicker last season.

Butler will play every game for St Kilda this season if he stays fit.

No worries Roachie, get your point. We got pick 64 for Lloyd and I'm not sure we could get much higher given we got a compo pick in the 30s for Ellis. I think we got a junk pick for butts as well, but not sure what else you'd expect.

lloyd did well last year, Butts has started well but they are handy players, not superstars.

There's also an element of clearing them to benefit their careers - we didn't want to stand in their way if they would have got better opportunities elsewhere - doing a Dodoro with them is not the Richmond way.

 

[tigersnake]

I think the club sees trading as a core part of its values, which is to ensure fringe players get opportunities to extend their career and set themselves up for life after football.

Shameful.

Agree. Also the other factor is that buts was grossly undervalued by the market. I said it at the time, there should have been a bidding war with the result being pick 25-35. It was the result of a lingering skepticism of our bona fides as the top side.

I thought lloydys value was about right. Hindsight shows him to be a bargain, but that's hindsight. Buts you could see what he would add to a bottom, middling side a from a mile away.

 

[zippadeee]

If we took pick 20 for CCJ I would fair dinkum spew as that is what we drafted him for.

His is just begining to settle into his big frame so no trade, he is Jacks obvious replacement.

That's exactly what I'm taking about.
Kids not OUR best 22 are automatic best 22 for 15 other sides.
We shouldn't be giving them away to clear cap space.

 

[TigerFlag2017]

Agree. Also the other factor is that buts was grossly undervalued by the market. I said it at the time, there should have been a bidding war with the result being pick 25-35. It was the result of a lingering skepticism of our bona fides as the top side.

I thought lloydys value was about right. Hindsight shows him to be a bargain, but that's hindsight. Buts you could see what he would add to a bottom, middling side a from a mile away.

The unfortunate reality last year was that Butts had lost his mojo last year, and for whatever reason seemed to have lost a yard of pace.

Seeing his highlights this year he looks like the player he was at his peak playing for us. In early 2018 he was burning it up, and then injured his leg (forget how or when).

 

[seven]

Spot on. The Butler and Lloyd trades, in particular, were dreadful.

These are blokes, it has been proved, who are best 22 elsewhere. That's how they should be valued.

I really hope we don't pay for this profligacy.

Sad part one of them could easily slot straight back in

 

[TigerFurious]

The Butler and Lloyd trades were not dreadful. Both were fringe players when they left, Lloyd was 28! Just because they are getting a game at their new club doesn’t mean we undervalued them. The best indication of their value would be the contracts they signed at their new clubs. I’d be staggered if either of them was on anything more than minimum wage plus match payments.

We got dudded on the Ellis deal but that was completely out of our control. A player signing at a new club for a reported $500k x4 years is worth more than a mid second round pick.

Btw, Lloyd hasn’t kicked a goal yet in 2020.

 

[AngryAnt]

I'm thinking back to the shyte Butts copped on this forum last year when his handful of games were below par.

We hate 'em and then expect we get high draft picks or quality players when we trade 'em. Life doesn't work that way.