AFLW Brisbane v Richmond Qualifying Final 5 November 2022 | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
  • IMPORTANT // Please look after your loved ones, yourself and be kind to others. If you are feeling that the world is too hard to handle there is always help - I implore you not to hesitate in contacting one of these wonderful organisations Lifeline and Beyond Blue ... and I'm sure reaching out to our PRE community we will find a way to help. T.

AFLW Brisbane v Richmond Qualifying Final 5 November 2022

So, the umpire does not make it clear who is to get the free kick, you have a choice:
  1. Give the ball back to the wrong player - 50m penalty.
  2. Don't give the ball back as you are not sure which player to give it to - 50m penalty for wasting time.
This is the problem, the players are not sure how to react as they get pinged either way, it happens a lot and we all know it.

DS
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Soooooo how about the footy?
I thought Grace Egan, Ellie Mackenzie and Mon Conti were thrashed. Which is why we got beat.

On Stella Reid she is improving but I'm still very unsure if she has enough athleticism.
Slow and non-agile
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
Also it seemed to be a hot 1/4.
Had we burnt up by quarter time?
Spent the game before it started? To be expected for our first tilt
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Soooooo how about the footy?
I thought Grace Egan, Ellie Mackenzie and Mon Conti were thrashed. Which is why we got beat.

On Stella Reid she is improving but I'm still very unsure if she has enough athleticism.
Slow and non-agile
Said before but Stella is very poor overhead. She is a very accurate kick though.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Soooooo how about the footy?
I thought Grace Egan, Ellie Mackenzie and Mon Conti were thrashed. Which is why we got beat.

On Stella Reid she is improving but I'm still very unsure if she has enough athleticism.
Slow and non-agile
Not sure Reid will make it but I saw improvement, just as you did. Seems to lack a bit of self belief or confidence maybe? Doesn't go hard enough offensively. Goes in hard to tackle and is effective, so she can do it but might need to learn to do that offensively. To back herself. I think she has the skills. Time will tell. One thing is for sure we need the next generation of forwards to start bobbing up.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Not sure Reid will make it but I saw improvement, just as you did. Seems to lack a bit of self belief or confidence maybe? Doesn't go hard enough offensively. Goes in hard to tackle and is effective, so she can do it but might need to learn to do that offensively. To back herself. I think she has the skills. Time will tell. One thing is for sure we need the next generation of forwards to start bobbing up.
Next year will be interesting as I,d imagine Wakefield hangs up her boots.
Is Reid ready and able to be a #2 forward?
Probs not tall enough.
We might see Mr P,s crush Gabby become a kpf

Good luck to her though!
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I understand your point of view, I just you are trying to create grey where only black and white exists.

19 says:

After a Mark or Free Kick has been awarded to a Player, a Fifty Metre Penalty will be awarded against the opposing Team which delays or impedes the play, or behaves in an unsportsmanlike manner.

So as soon as you give the ball to the wrong person you have delayed and impeded the play. There's no adjudication there, it's absolutely clear cut.

Then you move to the when imposed section and it describes word for word what the player did as grounds for a 50 being paid.

It could not tick the boxes more clearly to be paid a 50 if it tried. So tell me again how that is a bad decision?
I have told you, ad nauseum. You aren't prepared to concede that there is a grey area. The reason it is a bad decision, for the last time I promise, is because the rule is about delaying the game and Sheerin didn't hold up the play. If you are penalised for something you didn't do, that is a bad decision. The reason the ball didn't go to the correct player is because a player on the team supposed to be receiving the free held out their hands to accept the ball, and once the Richmond player handed it over she threw her arms out like she'd been slapped and let the ball fall to the ground. That player, the Brisbane player, is the reason the play was held up. There is absolutely no grey area there. She caused the delay of play. If you think the ump is justified in penalising the Tigers for the actions of a Brisbane player then so be it. I think that is the very definition of a bad decision. In your hypothetical Sheerin holds on to the footy waiting for the ump to clear it up. The next part is pure speculation on both our parts. If the ump thinks he has been clear and Sheerin should know who to give the ball to, but she doesn't, and asks the ump to clear it up, the ump would still award the 50 for time wasting. If the ump concedes that Sheerin's confusion was justified, they don't pay the 50. Not black and white. Grey.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Sheerin didn't hold up the play. If you are penalised for something you didn't do, that is a bad decision. The reason the ball didn't go to the correct player is because a player on the team supposed to be receiving the free held out their hands to accept the ball, and once the Richmond player handed it over she threw her arms out like she'd been slapped and let the ball fall to the ground. That player, the Brisbane player, is the reason the play was held up. There is absolutely no grey area there. She caused the delay of play.

What you are doing is putting the responsibility for your own actions on to someone else.

The player with the ball is in control. Not the Brisbane player. They chose what they do with the ball and who they throw it to. Not the Brisbane player. There is an umpire officiating the game, if you chose to listen to players instead that is also in your control.

The Richmond player is in total control of the situation. The Brisbane player can say whatever they like and it doesn't alter that.

The Richmond player held up the play by choosing to throw the ball to the wrong player. Even if the Brisbane player had caught the ball and handed it to the correct recipient it still would have delayed the game. Which is expressly written in the rules as being an unequivocal free kick, word for word as it took place.

It was a absolutely correct application of the rules without question and your refusal to see that is simply a microcosm of the colours before reason approach that creates such an unhelpful discourse on umpiring, in this forum and in the general public.
 
So attempts to deceive are fine, ok, that's your call.

In any case, it is not totally in the player's control, it is also in the umpire's control - they control whether a clear signal has been given as to who is awarded the free kick and they control whether a 50m penalty is awarded. Not to mention in the control of a player who was being deliberately deceiving, but for some that should be rewarded.

DS
 
So attempts to deceive are fine, ok, that's your call.

In any case, it is not totally in the player's control, it is also in the umpire's control - they control whether a clear signal has been given as to who is awarded the free kick and they control whether a 50m penalty is awarded. Not to mention in the control of a player who was being deliberately deceiving, but for some that should be rewarded.

So you've gone from this:

Enforce the damned rules as written or change them, the current situation is a mess and we wonder why people get frustrated.

To don't enforce the rules as written, only enforce the rules as written after taking into account other factors outside of the rules.
 
So attempts to deceive are fine, ok, that's your call.

In any case, it is not totally in the player's control, it is also in the umpire's control - they control whether a clear signal has been given as to who is awarded the free kick and they control whether a 50m penalty is awarded. Not to mention in the control of a player who was being deliberately deceiving, but for some that should be rewarded.

DS
What is 100% in your control is to always ask the ump which player the ball should go to if you are not 100% sure. That’s not debatable.

Maybe the umpire will still put ping you for wasting time but I can’t ever recall seeing that unless it is completely egregious and obvious.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
So you've gone from this:



To don't enforce the rules as written, only enforce the rules as written after taking into account other factors outside of the rules.

How is it enforcing the rules as written when the wrong player deliberately attempts to deceive?

How is it enforcing the rules as written when the player attempts to return the ball to an opponent she thinks is the recipient of the free kick?

How is it enforcing the rules when a team gets a 50m penalty from deliberate deception?

Anything to defend the umpires.

You cannot claim that the player in question is wasting time by returning the ball to the wrong player unless there is clear indication of which player has the free kick.

Defending deception, defending incompetence, these are your calls, your opinions.

DS
 
What is 100% in your control is to always ask the ump which player the ball should go to if you are not 100% sure. That’s not debatable.

Maybe the umpire will still put ping you for wasting time but I can’t ever recall seeing that unless it is completely egregious and obvious.
Agreed. But this completely ignores what is in the umpire's control. The ump can chose to apply the spirit of the rule or the letter of the law. They have that ability and that authority. In the event that a player deliberately intervenes in order to hold up play and try to scam a 50, the ump should be wise to it. A 50 is too high a price to pay for such a stupid situation. And that lies squarely on the ump.
 
What you are doing is putting the responsibility for your own actions on to someone else.

The player with the ball is in control. Not the Brisbane player. They chose what they do with the ball and who they throw it to. Not the Brisbane player. There is an umpire officiating the game, if you chose to listen to players instead that is also in your control.

The Richmond player is in total control of the situation. The Brisbane player can say whatever they like and it doesn't alter that.

The Richmond player held up the play by choosing to throw the ball to the wrong player. Even if the Brisbane player had caught the ball and handed it to the correct recipient it still would have delayed the game. Which is expressly written in the rules as being an unequivocal free kick, word for word as it took place.

It was a absolutely correct application of the rules without question and your refusal to see that is simply a microcosm of the colours before reason approach that creates such an unhelpful discourse on umpiring, in this forum and in the general public.
Pontificate much? Jesus mate. The reason there is "an unhelpful discourse" is because people like you refuse to accept that umps get it wrong, a lot. The reason we disagree is because you refuse to admit there are grey areas. That the rules allow for the ump not to pay that free and still be following both the spirit and the intention of the rule. You refuse to concede even that tiny bit of ground. That is why we disagree. That isn't a societal collapse. It's you being inflexible.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
How is it enforcing the rules as written when the wrong player deliberately attempts to deceive?

How is it enforcing the rules as written when the player attempts to return the ball to an opponent she thinks is the recipient of the free kick?

How is it enforcing the rules when a team gets a 50m penalty from deliberate deception?

Does the rule say anything about being deceived? I don't see the section that says you must return the ball directly to the correct player unless you have been tricked?

I also can't see the part that says no penalty if you return the ball to the player you think is the recipient?

This so-called deliberate deception is a non-issue. It's part of the cut and thrust of sport. Players try and put each other off with words all game, every game. Are you not going to pay holding the ball when the opposition tells a player with the ball they are clear? What about when a 50 is given away because one of the players calls play on? It might not be to everyone's taste but it is part of the game, within the rules and if you get sucked in then more fool you.

The rule says "Where a field Umpire has awarded a Mark or Free Kick to a Player, or a Player is preparing to bring or bringing the football back into play after a Behind is scored, a Fifty Metre Penalty in favour of that Player will be awarded if the field Umpire is of the opinion that any Player or Official from the opposing Team:
(e) has not returned the football directly and on the full to the Player awarded the Mark or Free Kick;"

So let's enforce the rules as written. Was a free kick or a mark paid? Yes. Did the player return the football directly and on the full to the player awarded the free kick? No. Then the umpire will, not may, will award a 50m penalty.

Pontificate much? Jesus mate. The reason there is "an unhelpful discourse" is because people like you refuse to accept that umps get it wrong, a lot. The reason we disagree is because you refuse to admit there are grey areas. That the rules allow for the ump not to pay that free and still be following both the spirit and the intention of the rule. You refuse to concede even that tiny bit of ground. That is why we disagree. That isn't a societal collapse. It's you being inflexible.

On the contrary, I accept umpires make mistakes all the time and it is a natural and normal part of the game that should be accepted in the same way a player's skill error is, as an inevitable art of the game, not a chance to throw a tantrum like a 2 year old and call them cheats.

The reason I'm inflexible here is because it is a cut and dried decision. Couldn't be more straightforward. And I don't like people using a player's mistake or misunderstanding of the rules as a chance to bash umpires. They make plenty of mistakes in every single game but this isn't one of them.

When you look at that rule it is absolutely crystal clear. It is only when you add irrelevant factors like what the opposition player did that you can try and shift the responsibility to the umpires.
 
Does the rule say anything about being deceived? I don't see the section that says you must return the ball directly to the correct player unless you have been tricked?

I also can't see the part that says no penalty if you return the ball to the player you think is the recipient?

This so-called deliberate deception is a non-issue. It's part of the cut and thrust of sport. Players try and put each other off with words all game, every game. Are you not going to pay holding the ball when the opposition tells a player with the ball they are clear? What about when a 50 is given away because one of the players calls play on? It might not be to everyone's taste but it is part of the game, within the rules and if you get sucked in then more fool you.

The rule says "Where a field Umpire has awarded a Mark or Free Kick to a Player, or a Player is preparing to bring or bringing the football back into play after a Behind is scored, a Fifty Metre Penalty in favour of that Player will be awarded if the field Umpire is of the opinion that any Player or Official from the opposing Team:
(e) has not returned the football directly and on the full to the Player awarded the Mark or Free Kick;"

So let's enforce the rules as written. Was a free kick or a mark paid? Yes. Did the player return the football directly and on the full to the player awarded the free kick? No. Then the umpire will, not may, will award a 50m penalty.​

Unless it’s “ common sense”
That must be in the sub section of the rules that only apply to us
 
You must return the ball to the player who was awarded the free kick, and that player is . . . oh haven't been told who gets the free but I know it is for a Brisbane player and one of them is asking for it, better not hold up the game or it will be a 50m penalty.

The intent here is clear. The Richmond player is not trying to hold up the game, they are trying to deliver the ball on the full to the player they believe has been awarded the free kick.

The above rule assumes that the player receiving the free kick has been made clear to the player in possession of the ball (a reasonable assumption . . . but the umps have to do their job for this assumption to hold). If that has not happened then the fault lies with the umpire.

We all know players will do all sorts of things to put each other off. But to equate that with deliberate deception in a static situation is ridiculous, I suppose you are fine with players flopping in a tackle getting a free kick for in the back, or flying out of a pack when not touched so they can milk a free. All fine, not a problem. Personally I reckon it is a blight on the game, but your opinion is clearly the opposite.

Just as an aside, you seem to have an issue with rules being interpreted as written, so what are you suggesting, that they are interpreted any which way whenever the ump feels like it? Yeah, that would help. We wouldn't want transparency in the adjudication of the game, that would be terrible.

DS
 
Well I couldn’t help myself. I went and checked the Sydney game day thread. Seems some us will argue strongly we want common sense applied when it benefits us and also argue strongly against it when it doesn’t. I’m sure I’ve been guilty of this myself at some stage too.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users