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A Preseason Preview - Final - Conclusions

pahoffm

No one player is bigger than the club.
Mar 24, 2004
21,145
2
Conclusions:

Port (2004-1st)
Yes, they've won their premiership but the window looks to be closing as players are aging. But they still have enough in support to be thereabouts. That is unless a premiership hangover kicks in. But they might be too experienced and intense to let a good chance slip.

Brisbane (2004-2nd)
The length of the season will take its toll. Brisbane may start well, they may have some great individual wins at home or when they can get a full team together. The away games will be the first sign of Brisbane's decline. I'm sure after a few injuries to key players that the big rut will hit. Brisbane struggling to make the finals for my mind.

Sainters (2004-3rd)
StKilda's major problem last season was their rucks. Last year the rules favoured young ruckmen jumping off a long run-up. This is the year StKilda needed a 200+cm ruckman and they traded Knobel to us. StKilda seems to be in the same boat as Melbourne, very good but inexperienced kpps, lots of runners, but may battle in the ruck. StKilda probably has a better engine by 1 or 2 cylinders but they'll need them if they are to secure that prize they so desperately desire.

Catters (2004-4th)
The major credit to this side is that it didn't have to rely on consecutive seasons as awooden-spooner, unlike another side, to build its list. It has almost been built up from local boys around Geelong and country Victoria. Again, credit to the them.
This side is probably in the best position it has been since 1963. Throughout the 70s, 80s and 90s there were always holes or gaps in the Geelong side. This is a more complete list. Thompson with this list has 4 to 5 years to win a premiership, maybe more than one. Considering the wait, and his patience, he deserves it. They may or may not win one this year, but they should win one in the next 3 years.

Dees (2004-5th)
Melbourne did really well last draft picking up Bate, Dunn & Newton. Moloney too will be very good for them. But the draftees still need time. Melbourne's success will be based on the same players as last year reperforming, or the "newies" performing immediately. And they seem to really be relying on big performances from players in or near the twilight zone. After their trials and tribulations of last year, and their fairytale finals appearance, and of course the tragedy of Troy Broadbridge I do wish Melbourne all the best for 2005. But their list looks very fragile. If EVERYTHING goes right for them in 2005 they'll reappear in the finals. If it doesn't they look like one team that could really fall into a heap.

Sydney (2004-6th)
It looks like the AFL are serious about getting the Swans a flag up in Sydney. The list of 47 players offers depth that few sides can match. And the good spread of players indicate that the list has been chosen wisely. For me, the Swans no lower than last year and probably chasing a top 4 spot come finals.

Weagles (2004-7th)
Very easy. Eagles with a great homeground advantage, good coaching, and very good list wont miss out on the finals, and should start pushing to finish close to or within the final 4. All they need is a good draw, with a good run home at the finish.

Dons (2004-8th)
Bombers are going to have to make some positional changes this year. This is really a case of the baby Bombers once again. Alot of improvement is looking as if it will be coming from their development & junior players. If these players step up then Essendon will be playing in the finals. If they don't, then Essendon will drop out into the lower half of the ladder. The most probable result is that they will just make the finals again, though just making the numbers up, again.

Dockers (2004-9th)
The Dockers have spent an enormous time investing in some of the best juniors in Australia. But I think they're running out of patience. Recruiting 3 experienced midfielders means that they want success this year. They have a good enough defence and midfield to be succesful. But, they will need Sandilands to be in top form all year, and for all their key forwards to fire big time throughout the season.
In the end, that last sentence is probably asking too much. I don't think Fremantle will improve greatly this year. They probably will make the bottom end of the finals. They may just miss out. If they lose Sandilands early they could be in real trouble.

North (2004-10th)
Things seem pretty good for North. They seem as if they should be playing finals this year. But there are 2 areas of concern.
1) The loss of leadership in its playing staff over the last year or two, and
2) The apparent weakness in its coaching staff by way of Laidley's assistants.
The Roos should very nearly be playing finals this year, BUT there just seems to be that gut feel that they are fragile and that Roo supporters may walk away disappointed at season's end.

Bluebaggers (2004-11th)
If this side had a quality CHF in 2005, I would back them for a surprise top 4 finish. They haven’t an already established one. They must still be ruing the fact that we got Simmonds instead of them. May be a junior will suddenly pop up this year. On the other hand, Maclure was less than a star at CHF in 3 Carlton premierships from 1979-82, so they may get along fine without one. Carlton will continue to improve this year. If 2005 is not their entrance to the finals, 2006 will certainly be.

Adelaide (2004-12th)
I'm going way out on this one. I think the Adelaide recruiting staff should be sacked on the spot. To me they have gone in the wrong direction. They lack enough prime & development inside & outside midfielders to get enough run up the ground. Their experienced midfielders, who let them down last season, are one year older. And now other AFL clubs can look at the development of these junior ruckmen, knowing that the Crows cant hold onto them all, and are now licking there lips at the prospect of poaching them in the future.
Yep, the Crows are a year older with not enough of the right types coming through early enough.
Crows for near woodenspooners in 2005.
I know it's a big call, but I can live with it.

Maggots (2004-13th)
The Pies seem relatively easy to place. They will probably have 1 more year like last season. Maybe their juniors and development players may be one year older, but so is Buckley. They rely so heavily on Buckley. That’s why they wanted Stevens so much last year, but Carlton got him, and Carlton improved. Caracella is clearly nowhere near a replacement for Buckley. Why they got him, I don’t know. Yes, the Carringbush will have to be patient until someone grows into Buckley’s shoes.

Dogs (2004-14th)
The Bulldogs seem relatively easy to place. A new but experienced coach with stable assistants. A list that has changed little but is now maturing into the vital development/prime zones in their defence and flanks. They will improve this year, but they will struggle for their wins as they lack those types of players that do move the ball quickly. They'll go up 2 or 3 places but until they really address the area of inside midfielders then they're far from becoming consistent finals contenders in the coming years.

Hawkers (2004-15th)
It is a bit hard to place the Hawks. Their runners are fortunately a year older and closer to the Prime zone, but their Key Position players are clearly underdone. I’d say like us 2005 will be a passing time year, hoping to quickly develop their KPPs. Like us they will be looking to make their mark in 2006. I think their current list is in a position where it can recover a bit quicker than ours and have a red hot go then. If they are training as intensely as we are, then I think that they will do better than us based on their more experienced runners. Also like us they are going to have to learn to spread the load better.

Tiges (2004-16th)
Using history as a predicting tool, the last time Tigerland went through such a big turnover of players was the 1992/1993 seasons. In 1993, John Northey took over the reins and drastically reformed the playing list. New names such as Duncan Kellaway, Jamie Tape, Matthew Richardson, Matthew Rogers and others were given a try. Some succeeded, others didn’t.
In 1993 the Tigers had a big Pre-season making, but losing by 10 points to Essendon, the Final of the Wizrad Cup equivalent. However the length of the season proper found them out. Already in late 2004 the Tigers, under Wallace, have been training very intensely. I predict that they will come out of the blocks with the same intensity, but the length of the season proper will find old legs, and some inexperienced ones, out.

My ladder for 2005:
1) Sydney
2) Port
3) Catters
4) Sainters
5) Dees
6) Brisbane
7) Weagles
8) Bluebaggers
9) Dockers
10) North
11) Dons
12) Doggies
13) Maggots
14) Tiges
15) Hawkers
16) Crows, where they should be.
 
Good work phantom and and even better to see a result different from the 99% of other ladder predictors.

My quick 2 cents is that crows 'won't be where they should be', pies higher, swans and dees lower.
 
interesting ladder there Phanto, so you are convinced that the AFL's job is complete in Brissy, and now its all systems go for the Swans, which, in today's money driven comp, is a the logical next step for them.
For my two cents worth, i have felt that the pies took a back seat approach last year, in readiness for a real big tilt at the flag this year. Caracella can only give them more fire power, so I am leaning towards them making top 4, if not playing off for the flag. Of course it all goes out the door if the captain goes missing with the hamstring.
 
dmx said:
For my two cents worth, i have felt that the pies took a back seat approach last year, in readiness for a real big tilt at the flag this year. Caracella can only give them more fire power, so I am leaning towards them making top 4, if not playing off for the flag. Of course it all goes out the door if the captain goes missing with the hamstring.

I think the maggots have one real problem, their captain, who the team is built around, is well passed his use by date. They have no one in the wings to replace him.
Buckley and Campbell are the same age. How can you be so hard on Campbell, yet think that Buckley can lift the maggots from 13th into the top 4?
 
Good work Phanto. I support your thoughts re Crows but Brissy struggling to make the 8? They still scare me!
 
Phantom said:
dmx said:
For my two cents worth, i have felt that the pies took a back seat approach last year, in readiness for a real big tilt at the flag this year. Caracella can only give them more fire power, so I am leaning towards them making top 4, if not playing off for the flag. Of course it all goes out the door if the captain goes missing with the hamstring.

I think the maggots have one real problem, their captain, who the team is built around, is well passed his use by date. They have no one in the wings to replace him.
Buckley and Campbell are the same age. How can you be so hard on Campbell, yet think that Buckley can lift the maggots from 13th into the top 4?

Just *smile* stirring on the Cambo thread, and have expained myself there already.
But lets not get to emotional here re our Wayne, because lets face it, and although a lot tend to hate Buckley for his figjam approach, he is a super player, and is one of those who can lift a side.
 
the bookies are ussually the best guide.They can take the emotion out of it.


PORT ADELAIDE   4.10
 ST KILDA   4.75
 BRISBANE   6.25
 GEELONG   8.00
 WEST COAST   8.00
 MELBOURNE   21.00
 SYDNEY   21.00
 COLLINGWOOD   23.00  
 ESSENDON   26.00
 FREMANTLE   31.00  
 CARLTON   34.00  
 ADELAIDE   36.00  
 KANGAROOS   67.00
 RICHMOND   67.00  
 HAWTHORN   81.00
 WESTERN BULLDOGS   81.00

Personally,i think they have Collingwood and Brisbane too high.

And Phantom has Sydney way too high.Appart from that looks pretty good.
 
evo said:
the bookies are ussually the best guide.They can take the emotion out of it.


PORT ADELAIDE   4.10
 ST KILDA   4.75
 BRISBANE   6.25
 GEELONG   8.00
 WEST COAST   8.00
 MELBOURNE   21.00
 SYDNEY   21.00
 COLLINGWOOD   23.00  
 ESSENDON   26.00
 FREMANTLE   31.00  
 CARLTON   34.00  
 ADELAIDE   36.00  
 KANGAROOS   67.00
 RICHMOND   67.00  
 HAWTHORN   81.00
 WESTERN BULLDOGS   81.00

Personally,i think they have Collingwood and Brisbane too high.

And Phantom has Sydney way too high.Appart from that looks pretty good.

I take it this ladder is the bookies ladder evo, so if they have the doggies in last place at 81 for the flag, can we get odds on them not finishing last? I will have a few bob on the doogies not winning the spoon anytime with them.
 
On Betfair you can lay odds DMX.ieyou can be the bookie.

http://www.betfair.com/

go for it.
 
What will be good about this year is that the field to win the flag will be alot more open this year than in the last few years. The decline of a couple of big name teams and the rise of some others may mean a very open competition this year.
 
Good work Phantom, I like it.  Interesting ladder positions but backed up well by thoughful analysis.  I agree about the Pies and Cats but think that the Dees still have a question mark over them for mine and Sydney - well it's a big call to put them on top but I suppose you've done the most research.  Look forward to seeing how the predictions pan out.

Puzzled how the Tiges could finish 14th thought with 10 wins.  ;D
 
Angie said:
Puzzled how the Tiges could finish 14th thought with 10 wins.  ;D

I've got the Tiges down for a probable 6-7 wins, so 14th place is about right. I'd like the Tigers to have 10 wins,but it is optimistic.
 
Phantom said:
What will be good about this year is that the field to win the flag will be alot more open this year than in the last few years. The decline of a couple of big name teams and the rise of some others may mean a very open competition this year.
yeah I agree with that.And some of the better lists are from the "fruity" clubs like Geelong, Melbourne,Saints and Freo.

Interesting season this one.
 
Fair enough conclusions you draw Phantom and I can see arguments for them.

Mind you, I don't have to agree with them, nor do I happen to agree with your final ladder.


This is your ladder.
My ladder for 2005:
1) Sydney
2) Port
3) Catters
4) Sainters
5) Dees
6) Brisbane
7) Weagles
Bluebaggers
9) Dockers
10) North
11) Dons
12) Doggies
13) Maggots
14) Tiges
15) Hawkers
16) Crows, where they should be.

I think Port and the Saints will be in the top two positions followed by a group of Eagles, cats, Dees, Swans, Freo with injuries and suspensions sorting out their positions.

Thats 7. the last position a toss up between Blues,Pies and Maybe Dons.

Hawthorn for the spoon and Tigers 13th. the rest a jumble...


Once again, Well done I have enjoyed the read.
 
CHF said:
Fair enough conclusions you draw Phantom and I can see arguments for them.

Mind you, I don't have to agree with them, nor do I happen to agree with your final ladder.

Well that's certainly fair enough.
 
Phantom said:
My ladder for 2005:
1) Sydney-what are you smoking phanto? :eek:.may just scrape into the 8
2) Port-Agreed around the mark
3) Catters-At best 4th
4) Sainters-should be top 3
5) Dees-the great unkown
6) Brisbane-In a way same as melb
7) Weagles-top 3
8) Bluebaggers-not so sure
9) Dockers-to miss the 8 would be a disgrace
10) North-agree with the rest who has missed the 8
11) Dons
12) Doggies
13) Maggots
14) Tiges
15) Hawkers
16) Crows, where they should be.
Good work Phanto with your previews
 
Phantom,good report but can't have Sydney finishing top.I think they are a chance to slip out of the 8.
 
jb03 said:
Good work phantom and and even better to see a result different from the 99% of other ladder predictors.

My quick 2 cents is that crows 'won't be where they should be', pies higher, swans and dees lower.

What happened to your prediction of bottom 3 for North Jim Bob??
And Laidley next coach sacked??

PS Who bet my mate $500 we'd finish higher than North on draft day, was it you or Evo??
 
struggletown3121 said:
jb03 said:
Good work phantom and and even better to see a result different from the 99% of other ladder predictors.

My quick 2 cents is that crows 'won't be where they should be', pies higher, swans and dees lower.

What happened to your prediction of bottom 3 for North Jim Bob??
And Laidley next coach sacked??

PS Who bet my mate $500 we'd finish higher than North on draft day, was it you or Evo??

LOL buggles. No I doubt that bet was with me, too large. And doubt that it was evo as well - too small.

However, I'm sticking with Kangas for bottom, the hawks being the only challengers. I don't recall stating Laidley being next coach sacked. IF they finish bottom however you never know, despite the contract extension. Though I can't see the Kangas being able to afford paying two coaches at the same time.
 
jb03 said:
However, I'm sticking with Kangas for bottom, the hawks being the only challengers.  I don't recall stating Laidley being next coach sacked.  IF they finish bottom however you never know, despite the contract extension.  Though I can't see the Kangas being able to afford paying two coaches at the same time.

not if there is a contra deal with the blues done in regards to swapping coaches.