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911 Truth Movement

Do you think the US government should hold an independent investigation into the events surrounding


  • Total voters
    63
KnightersRevenge said:
Sorry if you take it that way Bullus. None of your questions are new to this thread and so far you haven't presented any evidence at all let alone new evidence. You have questions you think are interesting or require answers, fair enough but there is more than enough discussion of the points you raise already over the previous 80+ pages. I have seen all the information you point to as a part of this thread from the start. To date I don't find any of it compelling. There is no reason to assume that a once-in-history event shouldn't produce once-in-history results IMO. Talk of other office fires is moot. No other event mimics the actual event of that day so I don't find them interesting or specifically informative in relation to 911. As I have said before, the fact that controlled demolition of WTC 7 could explain the way the building fell doesn't make a good and especially the most likely explanation.

So on one hand you are happy with the NIST explanation then on the other hand you cite falling debris as a reason for the collapse (which has been dismissed by the NIST report). You can't have it both ways. And for the record, I'm not pretending to have all the answers, just throwing out some ideas which may account for a freak occurance. I could direct you to some sites which have produced some peer reviewed studies dismissing the NIST findings but the impression I'm getting is that you won't read them. They don't produce new evidence but categorically refute the official explanation.

Just to clarify your stance, do you subscribe to the NIST report or not? If so, why is it that you constantly refer to falling debris? If you don't subscribe to the NIST report, where are you getting your information from?
 
tigertim said:
Fair enough. Then wait we shall.......

Guess so. Unless you want to argue the merit of a new investigation. ;D

TigerForce said:
Hey Patsy, does this simple question ever stick in your mind: 'If a majority of terrorist attacks were done with bombs, why use planes on this occassion?'

Why not bomb the WTC in a more detailed way than what 1993 showed, otherwise, why not just bomb Central Station.

I must admit that these 9/11 events come across as a typical Hollywood action film at times.

Northwoods was similarly devious TF. The bigger the impact the easier it is to garner public support.

KnightersRevenge said:
Forgive me if I am not chagrined.

No surprise there.

Just confirm it for me though; you think it's perfectly reasonable to ignore the most valid hypothesis because the logistics of creating the events seem too complex?
 
Disco08 said:
I always listen to you jimbob! A few points though with respect to your expertise:

Should the plan have been to demolish these buildings covertly I doubt those in charge would have worried too much about red tape or council approvals.

There have been hundreds, maybe thousands, of well executed controlled demolitions. Seems to me a highly talented team of demolition experts would be quite confident of getting the result they wanted.

Stray bits of building wouldn't be a concern to people already plotting to murder thousands.

I don't think the Dutch controlled demolition mega expert they quote in the AE doco reckons the Joker did it when he says WTC7's collpase is definitely a controlled demolition. Reckon he has a fair idea of what's required.

Strangely the many thousands of people who worked in those buildings didn't notice the detonators, wires and explosives that were surrounding them, or the large crews of men in the George Bush/*smile* Cheney rubber masks that installed them.
 
Azza said:
The chief designer though it could have been done by laying explosives in the core elevator shafts.
...or beavers. Or this fire that raged for 7 hours compounded by the impact of a 110 storey office tower?:

 
antman said:
Strangely the many thousands of people who worked in those buildings didn't notice the detonators, wires and explosives that were surrounding them, or the large crews of men in the George Bush/*smile* Cheney rubber masks that installed them.

Most of the office space was outside the central support structure.

You're a generally objective type antman. Don't you think the scientific method should override arguments of incredulity?
 
And that picture categorically confirms all the smoke was coming from building 7?
 
KnightersRevenge said:
...or beavers. Or this fire that raged for 7 hours compounded by the impact of a 110 storey office tower?:

Well yeah, I'm sure the beavers would have been similarly easy to hide as work undertaken within elevator shafts. I'm sure those querying how the demolitions were unseen would agree.
 
bullus_hit said:
So on one hand you are happy with the NIST explanation then on the other hand you cite falling debris as a reason for the collapse (which has been dismissed by the NIST report). You can't have it both ways. And for the record, I'm not pretending to have all the answers, just throwing out some ideas which may account for a freak occurance. I could direct you to some sites which have produced some peer reviewed studies dismissing the NIST findings but the impression I'm getting is that you won't read them. They don't produce new evidence but categorically refute the official explanation.

Just to clarify your stance, do you subscribe to the NIST report or not? If so, why is it that you constantly refer to falling debris? If you don't subscribe to the NIST report, where are you getting your information from?

I am using nothing more than reason and logic. If someone points me to what they think is reason I read it (your suggestion that I don't based on absolutely nothing is evidence of your bias not mine), so far you haven't presented anything but have made statements that are consistent with older posts from others on this thread. If someone posts something that I think seems unreasonable or an exaggeration I check it and post my findings if I can. So far much of what has been posted in opposition to the official report can only be found on what I call the 911 conspiracy web. No-one to my knowledge has posted anything that can be found in the pages of any scientific journals or credible national newspapers that backs up their case. You have said there is peer-reviewed literature, where is it? What journal was it published in? Science? Nature?

Disco has tried pin me to the NIST or as he likes to call it OR and has labelled those who oppose his view apologists. He maintains this is not meant to be derogatory and I have no reason to doubt him but I just hate labels. Is it not possible that I can come to my own conclusions based on what I have read and seen without fitting in to some neat category?
 
Azza said:
Well yeah, I'm sure the beavers would have been similarly easy to hide as work undertaken within elevator shafts. I'm sure those querying how the demolitions were unseen would agree.

I know Azza I just don't see why the most obvious answer is seen as so unlikely. It was hit by WTC 1 (I have said WTC 2 before but I was wrong) on the way down and then engulfed in flames and buckling for 7 hours at least, why do you not find that more compelling than secretly rigged with explosives?
 
Disco08 said:
Just confirm it for me though; you think it's perfectly reasonable to ignore the most valid hypothesis because the logistics of creating the events seem too complex?
Most valid by what measure?
 
The NYFD in the building felt it buckle and move. They made the call to evacuate the building because they felt it was unsafe. They were right.

So either the NYFD are in on the conspiracy or the buidling was showing signs of instability prior to collapsing.
 
KnightersRevenge said:
I know Azza I just don't see why the most obvious answer is seen as so unlikely. It was hit by WTC 1 (I have said WTC 2 before but I was wrong) on the way down and then engulfed in flames and buckling for 7 hours at least, why do you not find that more compelling than secretly rigged with explosives?

My point was in response to those saying any laying of demolitions would have been obvious. This isn't necessarily the case.

I agree the demolition scenario is very unlikely indeed, but find truthist architects and engineers queries interesting. If I was an American I think I'd want to see some answers.
 
KnightersRevenge said:
Most valid by what measure?

It explains most of the evidence. That's according to the experts quoted in the AE video Azza linked to. Have you watched that at all?

KnightersRevenge said:
I know Azza I just don't see why the most obvious answer is seen as so unlikely. It was hit by WTC 1 (I have said WTC 2 before but I was wrong) on the way down and then engulfed in flames and buckling for 7 hours at least, why do you not find that more compelling than secretly rigged with explosives?

The OR states WTC7 collpased solely due to office fires and there is no precedent at all for that.

KnightersRevenge said:
I am using nothing more than reason and logic. If someone points me to what they think is reason I read it (your suggestion that I don't based on absolutely nothing is evidence of your bias not mine), so far you haven't presented anything but have made statements that are consistent with older posts from others on this thread. If someone posts something that I think seems unreasonable or an exaggeration I check it and post my findings if I can. So far much of what has been posted in opposition to the official report can only be found on what I call the 911 conspiracy web. No-one to my knowledge has posted anything that can be found in the pages of any scientific journals or credible national newspapers that backs up their case. You have said there is peer-reviewed literature, where is it? What journal was it published in? Science? Nature?

Disco has tried pin me to the NIST or as he likes to call it OR and has labelled those who oppose his view apologists. He maintains this is not meant to be derogatory and I have no reason to doubt him but I just hate labels. Is it not possible that I can come to my own conclusions based on what I have read and seen without fitting in to some neat category?

OR stands for "official report"; it's common terminology and certainly not my invention.

You're stance is classic apologist. Have you admitted the possibility of any error within the OR?

jb03 said:
True but there would be still too many people that would need to know - it would need only one to spill the beans or alternatively they have all been bumped off as part of the conspiracy

True but for the desired outcome the planning is immense - nearly impossibly (IMO) to do covertly

I get this argument and agree it seems very tricky. I wouldn't want to call it impossible until I knew exactly what the plan would have had to entail though.
 
KnightersRevenge said:
. No-one to my knowledge has posted anything that can be found in the pages of any scientific journals or credible national newspapers that backs up their case. You have said there is peer-reviewed literature, where is it?

http://www.journalof911studies.com/resources/Brookman-Vol-33-Oct2012.pdf

http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/2010/Falsifiability.pdf

For those who don't want to read the entire text -

Many of these criticisms of the NIST report could fairly be dismissed if subsequent reviews had
provided explanations of apparent contradictions and thus had produced a testable hypothesis that
coincided with the real-world data. This has not occurred. Despite possession of all the
resources available in the $20M study, NIST adheres to an explanation for the collapses which is
basically circular and fails at critical points. It is unable to produce forensic evidence for the
required high temperatures; the test results contradict its claims; it is internally inconsistent; it
ignores many lines of contrary evidence; and it makes no attempt to search for an alternative
explanation.
NIST has resisted attempts to have the report corrected, thus publicly implying that the HICT
does not need revision. It is therefore clear that further investigation is urgently required and that
it must be independent of the bodies involved in the previous studies.

Even though NIST’s explanation appears to be either false or useless in explaining the events of
September 11, 2001, government complicity does not necessarily follow, but if official
explanations fail to cohere with the known evidence, the possibility of government complicity
must at least be explored. This is dangerous theoretical territory because it requires us to come to
terms with distressing possibilities.
The NIST report was produced by skilled scientists and technicians, hence it seems likely that
many of them would have themselves generated the arguments presented here. The fact that they
did not utilize such arguments implies either that some political pressure was put upon them to
underplay the significance of particular findings or that, as an agency of the Department of
Commerce, they simply had no say in the content of the report. Any attempt to explain the
inconsistencies and shortcomings within the report as simultaneous incompetence by hundreds of
scientific professionals is patently implausible.
Many Americans appeal to the admittedly complicated logistics of a planned operation to destroy
the towers with explosives as a means to avoid considering the evidence altogether. Arguments
from logistical complexity, however, do not serve to reconcile the evidence with official theory.
Indeed, these arguments offer no explanation of the collapses whatsoever. For many they serve
merely as psychological defense mechanisms, the essential purpose of which is to protect the
individual from having to confront the relevant evidence from the outset. Although government
complicity does not necessarily follow from the observations listed here, a detached evaluation of
the evidence simply cannot rule it out.
 
bullus_hit said:
And that picture categorically confirms all the smoke was coming from building 7?

So hang on, you can present absolutely nothing, zip, zero, zilch, nada and then question something I post? Glad those are the rules here. That was a very simple and indisputable piece of evidence that the WTC 7 fire was much more intense than many of the nay-sayers assert, here is some more:

Firefighter Tiernach Cassidy: It was fully engulfed. That whole building – there were pieces of tower
two in building seven and the corners of the building missing and whatnot. But just looking up at it
from ground level, however many stories it was, 40-some-odd, you could see the flames going straight
through from one side of the building to the other. That’s an entire block.


Here is clarification on the effect of the debris from WTC 1 The debris impact damage did play a secondary role in the last stages of the collapse sequence, where the exterior façade buckled at the lower floors where the impact damage was located.
 
Disco08 said:
It explains most of the evidence. That's according to the experts quoted in the AE video Azza linked to. Have you watched that at all?
So does the official report, you just don't accept it. There are many scenarios that can explain the events including the OR. Yours is no more compelling than any of the others IMO and can't be said to be more valid by my reckoning.


The OR states WTC7 collpased solely due to office fires and there is no precedent at all for that.
Not sure what your point is? It was unprecedented. How does that make it more likely to have been conspiratorially blown up than fell as the result of an unprecedented assault and an inability to fight the fires?
 
BECAUSE IT REALLY GOT GOING THAT
BUILDING SEVEN SAW IT LATE IN THE DAY AND
LIKE THE FIRST SEVEN FLOORS WERE ON FIRE IT
LOOKED LIKE HEAVY FIRE ON SEVEN FLOORS


http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110413.PDF

[youtube=560,315]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=th2bnG_7UyY[/youtube]
 
KnightersRevenge said:
So does the official report, you just don't accept it. There are many scenarios that can explain the events including the OR. Yours is no more compelling than any of the others IMO and can't be said to be more valid by my reckoning.

No it doesn't. That's the whole point. Did you read bullus' post?

Despite possession of all the
resources available in the $20M study, NIST adheres to an explanation for the collapses which is
basically circular and fails at critical points. It is unable to produce forensic evidence for the
required high temperatures; the test results contradict its claims; it is internally inconsistent; it
ignores many lines of contrary evidence; and it makes no attempt to search for an alternative
explanation.
NIST has resisted attempts to have the report corrected, thus publicly implying that the HICT
does not need revision. It is therefore clear that further investigation is urgently required and that
it must be independent of the bodies involved in the previous studies.


Have you watched the AE doco at all?

KnightersRevenge said:
Not sure what your point is? It was unprecedented. How does that make it more likely to have been conspiratorially blown up than fell as the result of an unprecedented assault and an inability to fight the fires?

The point is the building should never have failed because of fire alone. Hundreds of fires throghout history have never produced the result NIST insists explains the collapse of WTC7.