The Negative Gearing Poll | PUNT ROAD END | Richmond Tigers Forum
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The Negative Gearing Poll

What would be the best/fairest outcome our society as a whole?

  • Negative Gearing on investment properties should be abolished.

    Votes: 8 38.1%
  • We should leave the laws as they are and stop talking about it.

    Votes: 6 28.6%
  • It's a complicated issue but it should be raised for discussion.

    Votes: 6 28.6%
  • I don't know and/or don't care.

    Votes: 1 4.8%

  • Total voters
    21

martyshire

^^ Jack Graham that is
Aug 11, 2007
1,664
8
Rowville...or maybe London
I've seen a couple of articles about this in the mainstream media lately and read a lot of subsequent comments.

Personally, I don't think there is an easy solution that would be fair to all groups. Perhaps a very slow phasing out of NG on established properties (i.e. over a decade or two). That way, those who bought investment properties in the last few years don't get burnt too bad. I do think all the options and the potential implications should be discussed though. Personally, I don't think the major parties want to touch this issue because a lot of negatively-geared investors live in marginal seats (I don't have stats to back that up).
 
I voted 4. I don't know much about it, in fact probably nothing at all, but will be interested to read any discussion on it.
 
IMO, doing away with NG will have these effects:-
1) Taxpayers save money
but
2) Investors will buy less properties and therefore there are less rental properties on the market.

It's a win/lose situation. The answer propbably depends on your political bias.
 
To me, there is a very simple and straight-forward nexus between negative-gearing and the investments that are linked to it.

It is a fundamental right in our society to save money to provide for our future. For most of us, the lion's share of our income does not belong to us. It is used to meet our tax liabilities, our rent, our mortgage repayments, our gas, our electricity, the school fees for our children, our insurances, the food we eat and the clothes on our backs and on the backs of our families.

Once we meet these obligations, we may be lucky enough to have a smaller portion of our income left over. The question is, what do we do with this money?

Do we regard all of this as our discretionary spending? Do we simply use it to go to the footy, the movies, place a few bets, join a golf club, take a holiday, buy another pair of Nikes, drink a few cocktails, go out to dinner, buy a designer dress and a pair of Manolo Blahniks and paint the town red? You know, do all the fun things, consume it all. Why not, we can always hold out our hand for government assistance in retirement.

Saving money for the future is no fun. It is even less likely to occur if it is not encouraged or rewarded. It would also be beneficial for future Governments if there were a few self-funded retirees out there to lessen the load. It may be useful to reward those who choose to save.

When someone buys an asset and negatively gears it, they are using some of their income (read discretionary spending capacity) to help fund the investment. They make a loss on the investment, which is offset somewhat, by the tax break that they receive each year. Nonetheless, it is still a loss, even after the tax break. They may well make a loss on this investment for years.

So why would anyone bother entering into such as arrangement? After all, it means they have fewer funds to spend as they please.

The short answer is that they are hoping to sell the investment at a future date for a capital gain, one which is large enough to compensate them for all the losses made along the way and reward them with a profit. This is where it gets messy. Our government, in its wisdom, chosen to tax this capital gain through its Capital Gains Tax regime.

So, there we have the justification for allowing deductability of negative gearing. If you tax the reward (the Capital Gain), it is only fair that you allow a deduction for any expenses incurred along the way. To do otherwise, is double-dipping.

The real driver of property prices is not negative gearing. The real driver is the Capital Gains Tax exemption on the family home. As long as there is only one way to purchase a growth asset that attracts no CGT liability, Aussie house prices will continue their spectacular rise.

Perhaps a better solution would be to alter CGT and turn it into a Speculative Gains Tax which dissipates to zero once an asset has been held for say 10 or 15 years, and include the family home under its umbrella?
 
4 years ago I bought a negatively geared property.
Now, 4 years later, it's earning a profit so I pay tax on the profits.
As TOT70 said, "this is part of my retirement funding".
It would be wrong to assume that negatively geared properties are a tax deduction for the life of the investment. Usually, the Property Investment eventually turns profitable. Or it should if you've made the right buying decision. This happens because the Interest costs tend to be fixed, whereas the revenue increases over time.
 
poppa x said:
IMO, doing away with NG will have these effects:-
1) Taxpayers save money
but
2) Investors will buy less properties and therefore there are less rental properties on the market.

It's a win/lose situation. The answer propbably depends on your political bias.

But if there are less investors, there are also less renters. Who else are the investors going to sell their properties to?

To me, the 'less rental properties' argument only works if the properties suddenly disappear (or stop being built)
 
I've always been a fan of allowing the tax breaks for a negatively geared property to be used when the property starts posting a profit. Ring fencing the investment as such.
 
Its not a productive tax and should be would back, if not abolished. I don't begrude anyone doing it, I'm looking for another one at the moment.

Negative gearing only makes sense and is only beneficial if you are paying a lot of tax. That is, if you are doing well. Its basically a government subsidy for wealthy people to get wealthier.

Agree 100% with your second last para 70s but disagree 100% with the last. A lot of land bankers buy a house, forget about and rent it for 20 years until the area booms, then sell at a big profit (I,ve done it). Very little productive effort. The thought of having a tax free profit of $1m for doing not much is embarrassing and wrong. The amount of times I've heard people winge about 'only' being able to bocket $650K of an $800K profit on a neglected investment house annoys the hell out of me.
 
tigersnake said:
Its not a productive tax and should be would back, if not abolished. I don't begrude anyone doing it, I'm looking for another one at the moment.

Negative gearing only makes sense and is only beneficial if you are paying a lot of tax. That is, if you are doing well. Its basically a government subsidy for wealthy people to get wealthier.

Agree 100% with your second last para 70s but disagree 100% with the last. A lot of land bankers buy a house, forget about and rent it for 20 years until the area booms, then sell at a big profit (I,ve done it). Very little productive effort. The thought of having a tax free profit of $1m for doing not much is embarrassing and wrong. The amount of times I've heard people winge about 'only' being able to bocket $600K of an $800K profit on a neglected investment house annoys the hell out of me.

I raised CGT in this context because it is linked to negative gearing.

Twenty years is a long time to sit on an investment. It could well be argued that making a substantial capital gain was not the primary reason for making this investment in the first place. It could also be argued that if someone makes an investment today and sells it in 20 years time, the effect of these two transactions on house prices is minimal. They may well be taking advantage of inflation, property booms, changing land use, etc but, nonetheless, 20 years is a long time to wait for the profits and impact on the property market is minimal.

My point is that we should be distinguishing between a family buying and living in their family home for the long haul and a "mini-developer," for want of a better term, who buys a home to improve and sell for CGT-free profit after a short period.

In general, many of those who are struggling to get into the property market are only looking for security for their families.
 
tigersnake said:
Its not a productive tax and should be would back, if not abolished. I don't begrude anyone doing it, I'm looking for another one at the moment.

Negative gearing only makes sense and is only beneficial if you are paying a lot of tax. That is, if you are doing well. Its basically a government subsidy for wealthy people to get wealthier.

Agree 100% with your second last para 70s but disagree 100% with the last. A lot of land bankers buy a house, forget about and rent it for 20 years until the area booms, then sell at a big profit (I,ve done it). Very little productive effort. The thought of having a tax free profit of $1m for doing not much is embarrassing and wrong. The amount of times I've heard people winge about 'only' being able to bocket $650K of an $800K profit on a neglected investment house annoys the hell out of me.

Unless they purchased the house pre-CGT (pre Sep 85) or lie to the ATO there's no tax-free profit on a true investment property. Hope you paid your tax snake ;D

And disagree with TOT that the CGT free status of the family home is the main reason for property price increases. There are numerous factors at play. Population growth increases, lending standards being relaxed, lower interest rates, CGT changes in 1999 (50% CGT discount on assets owned for more than 12 months), the rise of property advisors/wealth creators, increase in speculative investments have all influenced price increases.

There have actually been studies done that show you create more wealth by renting a house to live in, buying a negatively geared investment property and investing the surplus funds that would have been paid on a mortgage. This is despite incl the CGT implications of selling an investment property as against the family home.
 
TOT70 said:
My point is that we should be distinguishing between a family buying and living in their family home for the long haul and a "mini-developer," for want of a better term, who buys a home to improve and sell for CGT-free profit after a short period.

In general, many of those who are struggling to get into the property market are only looking for security for their families.

Agree with this.
 
I am a renter and not likely to change status soon. I can't afford to buy and don't want to change my lifestyle in the drastic fashion I would have to in order to become a home-owner. I certainly will never be a speculator (probably - lotto not withstanding). I probably am able to live as I do because my landlord takes advantage of negative gearing. What I wonder is what would happen to me, or future people in my position without it? What would be the incentive to provide housing for the rental market other than staright profit, and wouldn't that increase rental prices?
 
What I wonder is what would happen to me, or future people in my position without it? What would be the incentive to provide housing for the rental market other than staright profit, and wouldn't that increase rental prices?

Careful Knighter. Some take offence at common sense questions :cutelaugh
 
It is definately a common sense question. Personally I don't think it would make any difference, there are greater forces at work, but who knows? Thats the reason that I personally would like to see it wound back rather than scrapped outright, not that anyone would ever scrap it outright, although the usual scaremongering would be trotted out any time the issue is mentioned.

I wouldn't want to anyone screwed, tenants or landlords, and it could be easily wound back so that could be done.
 
KnightersRevenge said:
I am a renter and not likely to change status soon. I can't afford to buy and don't want to change my lifestyle in the drastic fashion I would have to in order to become a home-owner. I certainly will never be a speculator (probably - lotto not withstanding). I probably am able to live as I do because my landlord takes advantage of negative gearing. What I wonder is what would happen to me, or future people in my position without it? What would be the incentive to provide housing for the rental market other than staright profit, and wouldn't that increase rental prices?
This point comes up a lot from landlords on property blogs and online newspaper comment sections.

The usual response from those against NG is that the market sets rent prices, not the landlord. The landlord would not be able to increase his rent without risking losing his tenant. Some would sell, which would push prices lower. For every investor that sells his rental property, there will be a renter buying a home. This assumes that the house-to-person ratio remains the same.

This makes sense to me but perhaps there is a logical counter argument I have not considered.
 
So, negative gearing is effectively a wealth transfer from owner-occupiers to property investors and potentially renters, though with other variables at play.
 
mld said:
So, negative gearing is effectively a wealth transfer from owner-occupiers to property investors and potentially renters, though with other variables at play.

If you beleive that NG helps make property investment more attractive and therefore pushes prices up, then you should put renters on the other side of the equation with the owner-ocucupiers. At least, those renters who hope to be an owner-occupier.
 
martyshire said:
If you beleive that NG helps make property investment more attractive and therefore pushes prices up, then you should put renters on the other side of the equation with the owner-ocucupiers. At least, those renters who hope to be an owner-occupier.

Yes, I meant in terms of potentially reducing the cost of renting.
 
martyshire said:
This point comes up a lot from landlords on property blogs and online newspaper comment sections.

The usual response from those against NG is that the market sets rent prices, not the landlord. The landlord would not be able to increase his rent without risking losing his tenant. Some would sell, which would push prices lower. For every investor that sells his rental property, there will be a renter buying a home. This assumes that the house-to-person ratio remains the same.

This makes sense to me but perhaps there is a logical counter argument I have not considered.
I don't completely understand NG, but I think there is a tax benefit if the owner isn't making a profit off the rent? The idea being that this will incentivise keeping rents down and making sure there is plenty of supply of rental accomodation. I know I pay well under market value because of this. I believe some owners artificially set their rents, or declare their rents, to be unprofitable so as to take advantage of the tax break. I don't completely understand the logic but I'm happy to take advantage of the low rent.