New York police officer killings

[Peaka]

I wonder whether any of the people fanning the race based tension in the US recently feel any moral responsibility for the killings of the two NYPD officers on the weekend? I think in these situations people in the public arena need to be careful not to make inflammatory remarks or things like this are bound to happen.

My thoughts go out to the families of the dead officers at what must be a terrible time for them.

 

[K3]

It is so sad and I'm sure the vast majority are horrified by it.

Hopefully the killing can stop.

 

[IanG]

I wonder whether any of the people fanning the race based tension in the US recently feel any moral responsibility for the killings of the two NYPD officers on the weekend? I think in these situations people in the public arena need to be careful not to make inflammatory remarks or things like this are bound to happen.

Yes of course the killing of black men by police should be swept under the carpet. They have no 'moral' responsibility and should not feel like they have.

My thoughts go out to the families of the dead officers at what must be a terrible time for them.

Mine do, but I would ask do your thoughts also go out to the families of Eric Garner and Michael Brown?

 

[Peaka]

Ian of course they do, I find it somewhat offensive that you would ask quite frankly.

The fact of the matter is that there is no evidence of any racial component in the deaths of Garner or Brown (irrespective of how regrettable they were). One of the arresting officers in the Garner case was an African American for example. The killing of the NYPD officers was clearly racially motivated. There is somewhat of a difference.

When people at the race card ( or the gender card etc) rather than address facts it clouds issues and is intended to stifle debate. Much like Essendon putting out a smokescreen on process rather than addressing the issue of what was given to their players.

 

[Peaka]

By the way something like 112 officers have died on active duty in 2014 this year Ian.

I don't think the situation is as simplistic as some people would like to paint it.

Not all altercations between people of different races are racial. In any multicultural and multiracial society there is bound to be altercations between members of society of different races, this doesn't mean they are racial attacks or racially motivated. Regrettably the situation in the USA is one where overwhelmingly young African Americans are over represented in the lower socio-economic rungs of society and it is people in this segment of society that tends to have altercations with law enforcement officers as the rate of crime tends to be higher. Ironically enough employment rates of African american teenagers was higher than that of white american teenagers until the introduction of the minimum wage.

I also find it repugnant that you imply that I think killing of black men should be swept under the carpet. I think the killing of anybody by anyone should not be tolerated. Similarly i think attacks on police officers (as happened in the Michael Brown case) should also not be tolerated.

 

[K3]

Ian of course they do, I find it somewhat offensive that you would ask quite frankly.

Yeah, I didn't read any such thing in your post either...

The fact of the matter is that there is no evidence of any racial component in the deaths of Garner or Brown (irrespective of how regrettable they were). One of the arresting officers in the Garner case was an African American for example. The killing of the NYPD officers was clearly racially motivated. There is somewhat of a difference.

Peaka, if you truly think the murder of Brown and Garner had no racial aspect to it I believe you are very, very mistaken. There was a really interesting segment on some SBS show a couple of months back, which highlighted the massive repression, which largely starts out through a. Fines for the pissiest of things and b. These fines resulting in 'largely' black folks ending up in jail for j-walking. These individuals are then pushed down a path of marginalisation, along with their hatred and distrust of lawmakers being greatly increased.

I don't know if you like stand-up comedy buuut if you do you should have a watch of Dave Chappelle (in case you already down on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJ3dk6KAvQM . If you watch this, and avoid laughing, and listen to what he is actually saying, you will get a really clear indication of a black man's thoughts on the current state of policing in the USA.

When people at the race card ( or the gender card etc) rather than address facts it clouds issues and is intended to stifle debate. Much like Essendon putting out a smokescreen on process rather than addressing the issue of what was given to their players.

The fact is that it is a race issue. Period. While it is easy, and somewhat understandable, to pass the above mentioned deaths off as tragic events, they weren't. If either of those individuals were white, I truly believe that they would be alive today. But they weren't, and they aren't. This is especially sad, IMO, with the Garner incident. If you watch the footage the cops were so, so, so, so, so, so, heavy-handed it is bloody ridiculous! Then to not have to face any charges??? A massive injustice has been done.

If I can find the doco on Ferguson, I will post it here, as I found it really enlightening.

 

[Peaka]

Given your thoughts K3 what makes you think it was a racial issue.

 

[IanG]

Ian of course they do, I find it somewhat offensive that you would ask quite frankly.

The fact of the matter is that there is no evidence of any racial component in the deaths of Garner or Brown (irrespective of how regrettable they were). One of the arresting officers in the Garner case was an African American for example. The killing of the NYPD officers was clearly racially motivated. There is somewhat of a difference.

When people at the race card ( or the gender card etc) rather than address facts it clouds issues and is intended to stifle debate. Much like Essendon putting out a smokescreen on process rather than addressing the issue of what was given to their players.

I apologise for the inference. But I will say that IMHO the public protests are justified to ensure the issue doesn't get forgotten and laws get changed because its not just the killings themselves a huge part of the issue is the police officers not even facing trial.

 

[IanG]

On the racism angle:

http://www.salon.com/2014/12/23/deader_than_a_roadkill_dog_disgusting_racist_song_about_michael_brown_performed_at_lapd_officers_charity_event/

And another shooting just today:

http://revolution-news.com/st-louis-area-police-murder-another-black-teen-antonio-martin/

 

[Peaka]

Ian G the fact that other people may make off colour jokes about the event and songs in poor taste does not mean the event itself had any racial overtones.

I don't condone the song or choice of it being played but I am not sure how it sheds any light on whether the death of Michael brown at the hands of a police officer he physically attacked was racially motivated or not. If the argument is that anytime a white police officer kills a black victim them it is a racist attack then it follows that whenever a black perpetrator kills a white victim it is also a racial attack. personally i find this fanciful and consider that it is more likely to be a victim of circumstance. Once again one of the police officers in the Garner arrest (the senior officer i believe) was an African American. Are you suggesting that if they had applied the choke hold it would not have been racial but because the other officer did it was?????? In my opinion race has nothing to do with it it was a situation of circumstance.

once again I dont condone any of the actions of the police necessarily just don't see any evidence that there is a racial element to it.

 

[Peaka]

Ian,

In relation to the black teen shot the ABC is reporting that :

" the man was shot after he drew a handgun and pointed it at the police officer, as he approached him and another man at the petrol station in Berkeley, Missouri".

I guess the facts will come out in the end but quite frankly I have little sympathy for any person (black, white, other) who pulls a gun on a police officer and doesn't expect there to be a consequence. once again i don't know all the facts but if the person did pull a gun on the officer it is difficult to say that shooting back is not an appropriate response. If you don't mind me asking what would you do if you were the officer in question??

 

[IanG]

Ian,

In relation to the black teen shot the ABC is reporting that :

" the man was shot after he drew a handgun and pointed it at the police officer, as he approached him and another man at the petrol station in Berkeley, Missouri".

I guess the facts will come out in the end but quite frankly I have little sympathy for any person (black, white, other) who pulls a gun on a police officer and doesn't expect there to be a consequence. once again i don't know all the facts but if the person did pull a gun on the officer it is difficult to say that shooting back is not an appropriate response. If you don't mind me asking what would you do if you were the officer in question??

This is whats been reported and if true obviously the situation is different from the others however I have heard other reports which dispute the police version.

 

[KnightersRevenge]

Ian,

In relation to the black teen shot the ABC is reporting that :

" the man was shot after he drew a handgun and pointed it at the police officer, as he approached him and another man at the petrol station in Berkeley, Missouri".

I guess the facts will come out in the end but quite frankly I have little sympathy for any person (black, white, other) who pulls a gun on a police officer and doesn't expect there to be a consequence. once again i don't know all the facts but if the person did pull a gun on the officer it is difficult to say that shooting back is not an appropriate response. If you don't mind me asking what would you do if you were the officer in question??

Does this include the 12yr old black child with a toy gun who was shot 2 seconds after the officer arrived?

 

[KnightersRevenge]

http://www.vox.com/2014/11/24/7275297/tamir-rice-police-shooting

 

[KnightersRevenge]

Ian G the fact that other people may make off colour jokes about the event and songs in poor taste does not mean the event itself had any racial overtones.

I don't condone the song or choice of it being played but I am not sure how it sheds any light on whether the death of Michael brown at the hands of a police officer he physically attacked was racially motivated or not. If the argument is that anytime a white police officer kills a black victim them it is a racist attack then it follows that whenever a black perpetrator kills a white victim it is also a racial attack. personally i find this fanciful and consider that it is more likely to be a victim of circumstance. Once again one of the police officers in the Garner arrest (the senior officer i believe) was an African American. Are you suggesting that if they had applied the choke hold it would not have been racial but because the other officer did it was?????? In my opinion race has nothing to do with it it was a situation of circumstance.

once again I dont condone any of the actions of the police necessarily just don't see any evidence that there is a racial element to it.

I can see the point but it ignores the facts. In the U.S. (and in parts of Australia) the nature of interactions between law enforcement and the populace are different when the person is black. The number of incarcerations is skewed towards blacks in the States (and in parts of Australia). Race matters. The Dave Chappelle video makes a valid point. A decades old spot on Jonny Carson with Richard Pryor makes the same point. Race matters. It clearly matters to the police who clearly enter into situatitns with black offenders differently.

On the Brown case, you do know that it is almost certain one of the witnesses who claims Brown charged the officer is a known perjurer and race-hater who was not in fact present but was allowed to give evidence?

 

[Peaka]

Knighter,

On that point what evidence do you have that the interaction is different if the person is black. Just because you state it doesn't make it true. Pretty ironic when you constantly talk about facts then make an unsubstantiated allegation. Once again don't condone violence of any sort just don't necessarily see it as always being racial in nature.

In any society of mixed race there will be interactions between people of different races. When bad things happen it doesn't always mean it was racially motivated. There are good and bad people of all races and racists in almost every racial group in my experience. This is regrettable but it seems to be an aspect of human nature to favour people of your own race over people of another race.

I wish it wasn't the case but I have met racist white people, racist Asians, racist African Americans and racist aborigines. The only thing I tend to find that they have in common is either a lack of formal education or a lack of world experience. I am it sure how this Can be overcome.

Hope everybody had a great Xmas.

 

[KnightersRevenge]

Knighter,

On that point what evidence do you have that the interaction is different if the person is black. Just because you state it doesn't make it true. Pretty ironic when you constantly talk about facts then make an unsubstantiated allegation. Once again don't condone violence of any sort just don't necessarily see it as always being racial in nature.

In any society of mixed race there will be interactions between people of different races. When bad things happen it doesn't always mean it was racially motivated. There are good and bad people of all races and racists in almost every racial group in my experience. This is regrettable but it seems to be an aspect of human nature to favour people of your own race over people of another race.

I wish it wasn't the case but I have met racist white people, racist Asians, racist African Americans and racist aborigines. The only thing I tend to find that they have in common is either a lack of formal education or a lack of world experience. I am it sure how this Can be overcome.

Hope everybody had a great Xmas.

I can only go by anecdote and statistics. If black people are reporting harsh treatment, and the statistics suggest they are much more likely to be arrested for the exact same offence, I don't see where your argument is? Can you explain the higher incarceration rates for African Americans and Indigenous Australians if interactions with law enforcement are not different? Here are a couple of graphs from the Washington Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/06/04/the-blackwhite-marijuana-arrest-gap-in-nine-charts/

Usage total:

Arrests for possession:

According to the Australian Institute of Criminology (AIC) "Indigenous persons make up 26 per cent of the prisoner population yet only constitute 2.5 per cent of the Australian population." You can't see a massive disparity here? In order to get to jail they have to be arrested, to be so over represented they must either be congenitally evil or law enforcement is prosecuting at 10 times the rate for the same offences. Which do you think is more likely?

 

[tigertim]

I can only go by anecdote and statistics. If black people are reporting harsh treatment, and the statistics suggest they are much more likely to be arrested for the exact same offence, I don't see where your argument is? Can you explain the higher incarceration rates for African Americans and Indigenous Australians if interactions with law enforcement are not different? Here are a couple of graphs from the Washington Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/06/04/the-blackwhite-marijuana-arrest-gap-in-nine-charts/

Usage total:

Arrests for possession:

According to the Australian Institute of Criminology (AIC) "Indigenous persons make up 26 per cent of the prisoner population yet only constitute 2.5 per cent of the Australian population." You can't see a massive disparity here? In order to get to jail they have to be arrested, to be so over represented they must either be congenitally evil or law enforcement is prosecuting at 10 times the rate for the same offences. Which do you think is more likely?

Why does it have to be one or the other? Can it not be combination of factors? I'd be curious as to the indigenous prisoner population by state too.

 

[KnightersRevenge]

Why does it have to be one or the other? Can it not be combination of factors? I'd be curious as to the indigenous prisoner population by state too.

It doesn't have to be. Do you have information or intuitions that might put more meat on the bones of the disparity in incarceration rates (and by implication the nature of interactions with law enforcement) that outwardly align very clearly with race? IMO it is either naive or disingenuous to claim that race relations are not the major factor given the statistics. The recent events in the 'States seem to highlight what is happening on a daily basis on a smaller and less fatal scale. I couldn't find better stats for Indigenous Australians but it was mentioned that W.A. fare the worst on that score.

The recent "intervention" runs a similar track. There are plenty of people with alcohol and child abuse problems in the general population but the intervention targets only Indigenous. If child abuse was a real focus why not suspend tax breaks and funding to the Catholic Church? There is a well established problem there.

 

[tigertim]

http://www.creativespirits.info/aboriginalculture/law/aboriginal-prison-rates

This answered some of my questions.